What to cross to make Stupice taste like a tomato?

cosmicgardener · February 2, 2006

While on the one hand I'm impressed both with the productivity and very early fruiting of Stupice, I can't say the same for the taste - it's soft and bland and not what I'm after at all. A nice light red colour and that's all I can say. But I'm thinking as a female plant it might be useful because it's got some of the qualities I want ( early and consistent) is PL and has shown good disease resistence and consistent truss ripening. So next season its going to be between Arcadia; Kelloggs Beefsteak; Verna Orange; Cherokee Purple; SIlvery Fir Tree; Box Car Willie; Brandywine Pink; King's Beefsteak. I'd try to develop high acid and deep colour and a good smell but bigger fruit than Stupice produces with the added criteria of early production for our southern climes. I'm not sure about using Beefsteaks as males. Whadyerreckon?

spudleafwillie · February 2, 2006

Hey Cosmic,
spudleafwillie says:
Your crossing work has already
been done for you. I have ssed for a Brandywine x StupiceF2 which was done by Stan Zubrowski of Canada.
Send me a SASE for a seed sample to:
Bill Malin
P.O. Box 214
Hillsboro, NM 88042 USA

Also check out Darrel Jones Tomato website at Selected Plants.com for other crosses that might be suitable such as:
randywine X Kotlas
Brandywine X Outdoor Girl
Brandywine X Polish
Brandywine X Stupice
Brandywine X Tad F3 potato leaf
Brandywine X Tad F3 reg leaf
Brandywine X Glacier

Hope this helps, Spud

Tomstrees · February 2, 2006

Spudleaf -

All potato leaf and early ?

~ Tom

spudleafwillie · February 2, 2006

~Tom,
As far as I know, all except Brandywine X Tad F3 reg leaf, in the F1 are PL. The Brandywine, I think, was red and PL as were the Kotlas, Outdoor Girl, Polish, Stupice,Tad F3 potato leaf and Glacier. The crosses with these should give nothing but PL.

Brandywine X Tad F3 reg leaf should give 100% RL in the F1 and 75% RL +25% PL in the F2.

Spud

**nctomatoman** · February 2, 2006

I need to talk to Darrel - I sent him the Brandywine X Tad F3s for his curiosity only; they should not be distributed, because they are a genetic mess (not at all stable) at this point. They are each from my growout of 11 Brandywine X Tad F2 plants last year - and in fact, it is only an unproven theory of mine that Tad is the cross partner of Brandywine that led to the hybrid. I sent him some seed just for him to grow them out, see what they do and let me know (and return some seed). I am sure that he will get a mix of potato and regular leaf from each, with a wide variety of appearances.

cosmicgardener · February 2, 2006

Thanks Spud and all. I'm not sure what I'm allowed to bring into Tasmania from the US so offers of seed are appreciated but I'm trying to keep an 'on the island' environment at present. Appreciate the imput, it seems that Stupice is frequently crossed. Has anyone done it the other way, crossing Stupice onto other var.?

**nctomatoman** · February 2, 2006

It should theoretically make no difference if Stupice is the female or male in any given cross, as long as the cross is clean. This is where Keith or Carolyn need to chime in, however, as I am neither a geneticist or horticulturalist!

Fusion_power · February 5, 2006

Please read carefully what it says on my varieties page. It specifically states that this is the List of Seed that I have. Craig provided the Brandwine X Tad seed with a stipulation that I would not distribute either plants or seed. I will be growing out a few plants this year but only to see if anything interesting segregates out. I will not provide either seed or plants to anyone else.

I'm growing the Brandywine X Stupice F3 out this season. The objective is as above to find a very early larger and better flavored tomato than Stupice. The cross was seriously mixed up when I got the F2 seed. I got a mix of potato leaf and regular leaf plants. This tells me that it may not be a pure cross since both Brandywine and Stupice are potato leaf. Still, 2 of the plants I grew in 2004 were interesting with moderately large fruit and maturity in the 65 day range. This is 10 days earlier than Brandywine but about 10 days later than Stupice.

One thing I am concerned about is that the 2 to 4 oz size of stupice is one of the stable fruit forms for tomato. I have grown out a Stupice cross in the past but had great difficulty finding segregates that were larger than Stupice. I grew 64 plants and only 8 of them were larger than Stupice and of those 8, none was more than a 6 oz tomato.

Since I touched on fruit form, I'll go on by saying that Cherry type is a stable fruit form. It is characterized by 2 or 3 seed locules and fruit size from pea size up to about 1.25 inches. I have one variety (Catherine Simms) that is a mini beefsteak type cherry. It has 4 seed locules and is slightly flattened where most cherry tomatoes are round. The genes for Cherry size are dominant in every cross I've seen. The next stable fruit size I've seen is the 2 to 4 oz fruit typical of Stupice, Glacier, Kotlas, Kimberly, etc. This size is dominant in all crosses I've grown out except in a cross with a cherry tomato. Beefsteak is an interesting gene. It causes fused ovaries which makes a single very large fruit. Its really interesting when crossed with a heart shape variety. The two genes are definitely on separate chromosomes and can readily be segregated out. The Large Pink Bulgarian Potato Leaf cross that I got from Chuck Wyatt's seed is a good example. The seed segregates to 1 large beefsteak heart shaped fruit, 2 medium sized beefsteak hearts, and 1 small pure heart shaped tomato. I deliberately concentrated on the large beefsteak heart tomato in growouts and now have some really good F5 seedlings growing.

Fusion

Mantis · February 6, 2006

I crossed Nepal with Tommy Toe hoping to get maybe golf ball sized fruit, but got smaller fruit in the F1. Not much bigger than TT but ribbed like Russian Reds. Will grow out some F2's next season.
Also crossed Brandywine with College Challenger and am growing out some of the F1's in the greenhouse as a fall crop. Wont know if the cross worked until I get fruit as CC was the mother and it is RL.

February 2, 2006	#1
cosmicgardener Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Tasmania, Australia Posts: 407	What to cross to make Stupice taste like a tomato? While on the one hand I'm impressed both with the productivity and very early fruiting of Stupice, I can't say the same for the taste - it's soft and bland and not what I'm after at all. A nice light red colour and that's all I can say. But I'm thinking as a female plant it might be useful because it's got some of the qualities I want ( early and consistent) is PL and has shown good disease resistence and consistent truss ripening. So next season its going to be between Arcadia; Kelloggs Beefsteak; Verna Orange; Cherokee Purple; SIlvery Fir Tree; Box Car Willie; Brandywine Pink; King's Beefsteak. I'd try to develop high acid and deep colour and a good smell but bigger fruit than Stupice produces with the added criteria of early production for our southern climes. I'm not sure about using Beefsteaks as males. Whadyerreckon?

February 2, 2006	#4
spudleafwillie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Zone 7b sw New Mexico,. Posts: 197	Joined: 28 Jan 2006 All potato leaf and early ?~ ~Tom, As far as I know, all except Brandywine X Tad F3 reg leaf, in the F1 are PL. The Brandywine, I think, was red and PL as were the Kotlas, Outdoor Girl, Polish, Stupice,Tad F3 potato leaf and Glacier. The crosses with these should give nothing but PL. Brandywine X Tad F3 reg leaf should give 100% RL in the F1 and 75% RL +25% PL in the F2. Spud

February 2, 2006	#5
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	I need to talk to Darrel - I sent him the Brandywine X Tad F3s for his curiosity only; they should not be distributed, because they are a genetic mess (not at all stable) at this point. They are each from my growout of 11 Brandywine X Tad F2 plants last year - and in fact, it is only an unproven theory of mine that Tad is the cross partner of Brandywine that led to the hybrid. I sent him some seed just for him to grow them out, see what they do and let me know (and return some seed). I am sure that he will get a mix of potato and regular leaf from each, with a wide variety of appearances. __________________ Craig

February 2, 2006	#7
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	It should theoretically make no difference if Stupice is the female or male in any given cross, as long as the cross is clean. This is where Keith or Carolyn need to chime in, however, as I am neither a geneticist or horticulturalist! __________________ Craig

February 2, 2006	#3
Tomstrees Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NJ Bayshore Posts: 3,848	Spudleaf - All potato leaf and early ? ~ Tom

February 5, 2006	#8
Fusion_power Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,250	Please read carefully what it says on my varieties page. It specifically states that this is the List of Seed that I have. Craig provided the Brandwine X Tad seed with a stipulation that I would not distribute either plants or seed. I will be growing out a few plants this year but only to see if anything interesting segregates out. I will not provide either seed or plants to anyone else. I'm growing the Brandywine X Stupice F3 out this season. The objective is as above to find a very early larger and better flavored tomato than Stupice. The cross was seriously mixed up when I got the F2 seed. I got a mix of potato leaf and regular leaf plants. This tells me that it may not be a pure cross since both Brandywine and Stupice are potato leaf. Still, 2 of the plants I grew in 2004 were interesting with moderately large fruit and maturity in the 65 day range. This is 10 days earlier than Brandywine but about 10 days later than Stupice. One thing I am concerned about is that the 2 to 4 oz size of stupice is one of the stable fruit forms for tomato. I have grown out a Stupice cross in the past but had great difficulty finding segregates that were larger than Stupice. I grew 64 plants and only 8 of them were larger than Stupice and of those 8, none was more than a 6 oz tomato. Since I touched on fruit form, I'll go on by saying that Cherry type is a stable fruit form. It is characterized by 2 or 3 seed locules and fruit size from pea size up to about 1.25 inches. I have one variety (Catherine Simms) that is a mini beefsteak type cherry. It has 4 seed locules and is slightly flattened where most cherry tomatoes are round. The genes for Cherry size are dominant in every cross I've seen. The next stable fruit size I've seen is the 2 to 4 oz fruit typical of Stupice, Glacier, Kotlas, Kimberly, etc. This size is dominant in all crosses I've grown out except in a cross with a cherry tomato. Beefsteak is an interesting gene. It causes fused ovaries which makes a single very large fruit. Its really interesting when crossed with a heart shape variety. The two genes are definitely on separate chromosomes and can readily be segregated out. The Large Pink Bulgarian Potato Leaf cross that I got from Chuck Wyatt's seed is a good example. The seed segregates to 1 large beefsteak heart shaped fruit, 2 medium sized beefsteak hearts, and 1 small pure heart shaped tomato. I deliberately concentrated on the large beefsteak heart tomato in growouts and now have some really good F5 seedlings growing. Fusion

February 6, 2006	#9
Mantis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Oz Posts: 1,241	I crossed Nepal with Tommy Toe hoping to get maybe golf ball sized fruit, but got smaller fruit in the F1. Not much bigger than TT but ribbed like Russian Reds. Will grow out some F2's next season. Also crossed Brandywine with College Challenger and am growing out some of the F1's in the greenhouse as a fall crop. Wont know if the cross worked until I get fruit as CC was the mother and it is RL.