Culling Purple Haze Seedlings

lumierefrere · March 17, 2009

I've started some Purple Haze F2 seeds. It's supposed to be a PL. So I ditch anything that doesn't have a smooth edge as soon as I can detect the difference? Yes, this is my first time for this and I don't want to ditch good seedlings by mistake/too early.

Barb

duajones · March 17, 2009

I am not sure if my PH is F2 or F3 but all of the ones that germinated for me were RL

lumierefrere · March 17, 2009

I have 1 obvious PL and the rest appear to be RL. IIRC (not guarantee!) Purple Haze is PL but I'm sure glad I asked because now I'm not 100% positive.

Vince · March 17, 2009

"I've started some Purple Haze F2 seeds. It's supposed to be a PL."

Barb, Purple haze F1 is RL, which came from a cross from a Open pollinated PL X RL. The F2 seed should be 75% regular leaf and 25% Potato Leaf. If you save seed from the potato Leaf F2 plant it should breed true for PL foliage in the F3.

"I am not sure if my PH is F2 or F3 but all of the ones that germinated for me were RL"

How many seeds did you start Duajones? Even if you started 20 seeds of F2 it is not immpossible you would not have seen any potato leaf plants. The 25% PL expected is better reflected if you germinated a very large number of seeds.

amideutch · March 17, 2009

Purple Haze was a Brandywine x Cherokee Purple which a PL segregate was chosen in the F4 stage and was crossed with Black Cherry to get the present Purple Haze which will segregate out to include RL's and PL's. I received seed from Ray that were F3's which I'm growing this year. Ami

lumierefrere · March 17, 2009

Ray got his seeds from me. I got mine from Keith.

amideutch · March 17, 2009

Thanks Barb for the seed trail of the Purple Haze I'm growing. Ami

duajones · March 17, 2009

I got my seeds from Ray as well. I did not sow enough seeds to reflect the leaf habit

lumierefrere · March 17, 2009

So are we selecting the PL or the RL? The RL, right? I went to Keith's site and it says PH was a RL. It's 2 seasons ago for me and I don't remember anymore what it was. This is the exact reason I didn't do this last year--I was sure it was too complicated.

And isn't it true on some level that the only person who can accurately dehybridize it is Keith, because he best knows what it is/is supposed to be? I worry that we're all going to be having our own version of PH but none will be the same and none of them will be correct.

Anyone want my seedlings?

Barb

johno · March 17, 2009

Barb, there is no "correct" way for all of us to select variations, no version that PH is "supposed to be". You select for whatever you want. You might be going for PL or RL, or you might be selecting for larger or smaller fruits, or certain flavors... that's up to the individual. I think Keith would tell you the same thing. With three great cultivars in Purple Haze's genetic background, there are lots of possibilities. What would be the point of everyone trying to get the same result?

dice · March 17, 2009

Usually when someone sets out to "dehybridize" an F1 hybrid,
they are trying to select plants that come as close as they
can get to the original F1. That is what Carolyn and Barkeater
were doing with Ramapo and what many have tried with
SunGold. To do that one usually needs a supply of F1 seeds
to grow and compare with succeeding generations. Kind of hard
to do with Purple Haze F1 (no seeds of the original available).

But that does not mean that the grower necessarily has to toss
anything that diverges from that goal. Some of the other
segregates might be excellent tomatoes. One simply needs to
indicate in some way that a diverging line is not an attempt
to produce a close copy of the original F1, usually by changing
the name of it.

Tania has a good example on her Purple Haze page in the
Tomatobase:

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Purple_Haze

You can see that she has given the lines that she selected to
carry on to the next generation their own names, and they
will be whatever they turn out to be once they are stable.
Any of them might come very close to Purple Haze F1 itself
or not, as chance will have it, but she is simply selecting what
seem to be the best tomatoes in the growouts.

lumierefrere · March 17, 2009

Actually I do have some F1s from Keith from 2/3 years ago. Should I try to grow one out as well to compare? I could grow one out a year I suppose as a reminder.

PNW_D · March 17, 2009

Oops, information already posted

dice · March 18, 2009

You could grow one original F1 out and take a cutting in the
fall, keep it alive over the winter (take cuttings as necessary
and reroot them if it starts to look a little weak), prune as
necessary to keep the size in check, etc, then start each
spring with a freshly rooted cutting of the original to compare
with that year's selections.

That way if you find one year that the seeds of the original
will no longer sprout, you are still covered for having a
comparison copy of the original.

lumierefrere · March 18, 2009

I did attempt to take a cutting and keep it over the winter that first year but I was lax. Maybe I'll try it again--give me a project to focus on.

March 17, 2009	#1
lumierefrere Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Zone 4 NY Posts: 772	Culling Purple Haze Seedlings I've started some Purple Haze F2 seeds. It's supposed to be a PL. So I ditch anything that doesn't have a smooth edge as soon as I can detect the difference? Yes, this is my first time for this and I don't want to ditch good seedlings by mistake/too early. Barb

March 17, 2009	#4
Vince Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Riverside, CA Posts: 942	"I've started some Purple Haze F2 seeds. It's supposed to be a PL." Barb, Purple haze F1 is RL, which came from a cross from a Open pollinated PL X RL. The F2 seed should be 75% regular leaf and 25% Potato Leaf. If you save seed from the potato Leaf F2 plant it should breed true for PL foliage in the F3. "I am not sure if my PH is F2 or F3 but all of the ones that germinated for me were RL" How many seeds did you start Duajones? Even if you started 20 seeds of F2 it is not immpossible you would not have seen any potato leaf plants. The 25% PL expected is better reflected if you germinated a very large number of seeds. __________________ Vince

March 17, 2009	#5
amideutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Germany 49°26"N 07°36"E Posts: 5,041	Purple Haze was a Brandywine x Cherokee Purple which a PL segregate was chosen in the F4 stage and was crossed with Black Cherry to get the present Purple Haze which will segregate out to include RL's and PL's. I received seed from Ray that were F3's which I'm growing this year. Ami __________________ Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘...Holy Crap .....What a ride!'

March 17, 2009	#7
amideutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Germany 49°26"N 07°36"E Posts: 5,041	Thanks Barb for the seed trail of the Purple Haze I'm growing. Ami __________________ Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘...Holy Crap .....What a ride!'

March 17, 2009	#10
johno Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Arkansas zone 6b Posts: 441	Barb, there is no "correct" way for all of us to select variations, no version that PH is "supposed to be". You select for whatever you want. You might be going for PL or RL, or you might be selecting for larger or smaller fruits, or certain flavors... that's up to the individual. I think Keith would tell you the same thing. With three great cultivars in Purple Haze's genetic background, there are lots of possibilities. What would be the point of everyone trying to get the same result? __________________ You create your own universe as you go along. Winston Churchill

March 17, 2009	#2
duajones Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Corpus Christi,Texas Z9 Posts: 1,996	I am not sure if my PH is F2 or F3 but all of the ones that germinated for me were RL

March 17, 2009	#11
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	Usually when someone sets out to "dehybridize" an F1 hybrid, they are trying to select plants that come as close as they can get to the original F1. That is what Carolyn and Barkeater were doing with Ramapo and what many have tried with SunGold. To do that one usually needs a supply of F1 seeds to grow and compare with succeeding generations. Kind of hard to do with Purple Haze F1 (no seeds of the original available). But that does not mean that the grower necessarily has to toss anything that diverges from that goal. Some of the other segregates might be excellent tomatoes. One simply needs to indicate in some way that a diverging line is not an attempt to produce a close copy of the original F1, usually by changing the name of it. Tania has a good example on her Purple Haze page in the Tomatobase: http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Purple_Haze You can see that she has given the lines that she selected to carry on to the next generation their own names, and they will be whatever they turn out to be once they are stable. Any of them might come very close to Purple Haze F1 itself or not, as chance will have it, but she is simply selecting what seem to be the best tomatoes in the growouts. __________________ -- alias

March 17, 2009	#13
PNW_D Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: West Coast, Canada Posts: 961	Oops, information already posted __________________ D.

March 18, 2009	#14
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	You could grow one original F1 out and take a cutting in the fall, keep it alive over the winter (take cuttings as necessary and reroot them if it starts to look a little weak), prune as necessary to keep the size in check, etc, then start each spring with a freshly rooted cutting of the original to compare with that year's selections. That way if you find one year that the seeds of the original will no longer sprout, you are still covered for having a comparison copy of the original. __________________ -- alias