Damping Off

[Catntree]

I've had a lot of trouble with damping-off this year....fresh potting soil was used, but plants are in a damp basement, so I think site is the problem.

Any ways to prevent or combat damping off?

[JerryL]

Catntree

It might just be the term you are using for your seed starting medium but you don’t want to use Potting SOIL.

Use seed starting MIX. Some manufactures call it Potting MIX.

[Catntree]

OK,

I used Promix and don't cover the seeds. I DO have a new seedling heat mat who's arrival does seem to coincide the DO problems.....for some reason....probably coincidence.

Ummm...I don't wash my old pots, but have been reusing them for years with no washing......and have had DO only one other time. Not that I'm dismissing your point with that.....

NOW, as far as the basement.....the Promix was opened down there and the DO appeared in later seedling and plantings....peppers, which I started first, have no problems (even later-seeded peppers haven't had the problem.....go figure).....so...I'm now wondering if the Promix got innoculated. Could it be a simple solution of storing the mix upstairs next year?

Now....big nurseries must do something about DO....either to prevent or treat....mustn't they? Anyone know? Use VAM, or one of those innoculating products, maybe?

Anyway, I can do some research for myself, but wanted to check with you fine people first,
Thanks.

[WildLife]

Hi,
I see your in Maine.
Hows the temp in the basement?
My understanding is that low temps
and moist soil induce Damp Off.
55 deg is the low I think, less water.
Wild "keep it warm"Life

[carolyn137]

What big nurseries and commercial growers use is a benomyl drench. And others advocate chamomile tea or sphagnum moss, but I've never been convinced that they do anything.

Pro-Mix and the other soilless mixes usually have little to no presence of the three fungal genera and species that can cause damping off. But have they been implicated? Yes, for sure, for all it takes is conditions of high moisture with inadequate air flow to get even the few that might be in soilless mixes to get things going.

One of those species causes pre-emergent damping off where seeds are destroyed and never germinate while the other two can cause the typical narrow brown lesion at the soil line with the seedlings falling over, and I'm assuming that's what you have.

I can't see a bag of pro-Mix getting contaminated b'c these fungi are not airborne, they are soilborne.

And peppers and other veggies are also susceptible to DO as well.

What's the chance that there is any soil in the basement?

YOu mention pots, so are these already transplanted seedlings or did they flop over when newly germinated?
And has any soil previously been in those pots?

Maybe I'm just understanding your procedure here b'c I sow all seeds in a dedicated seed pan or in a professional 20 row seed insert, or did when I was growing lots of plants.

Carolyn

[Catntree]

Carolyn,

I think I have both types of DO fungi. Now....last year the basement was pretty dry....this year...I just found a nice clump of fruiting bodies....the pale, rubbery-looking mushrooms.....COOL, LOL.....right at the bottom of the stairs.

Most of the problems were after transplant and I didn't get the brown ring, but the roots shrivelled below the soil surface and germination was also spotty. I follow Craig's style of growing seedlings.

Hmmm...what do you mean by "What's the chance that there is any soil in the basement?"

This is a 200-year-old farmhouse with stone foundation and I just removed the majority of a large Lilac whose roots were coming inside the basement; as well as an overgrown Yew that was doing the same thing. A lot of the floor joists were replaced from past moisture problems, but there are still a lot of the original beams remaining. Oh.....yes, there is soil in the basement, lolol.

[Delora]

Originally Posted by Catntree

Carolyn,

I think I have both types of DO fungi. Now....last year the basement was pretty dry....this year...I just found a nice clump of fruiting bodies....the pale, rubbery-looking mushrooms.....COOL, LOL.....right at the bottom of the stairs.

This is a 200-year-old farmhouse with stone foundation and I just removed the majority of a large Lilac whose roots were coming inside the basement; as well as an overgrown Yew that was doing the same thing. A lot of the floor joists were replaced from past moisture problems, but there are still a lot of the original beams remaining. Oh.....yes, there is soil in the basement, lolol.

Off topic, but it may be beneficial for you to invest $100 in a good dehumidifier. We keep one running all the time that drains directly into the sump pump via a hose.



-Delora

[Catntree]

Oh,
I have a dehumidifier.

Did I mention the farm was built on a bog?

In places, it has the best soil I've ever seen.....damp basement is the price I pay for good ground.

[Delora]

Originally Posted by Catntree

Oh,
I have a dehumidifier.

Did I mention the farm was built on a bog?

In places, it has the best soil I've ever seen.....damp basement is the price I pay for good ground.

Ahh, no contest then! Growing conditions always trump basement dampness

[carolyn137]

(Most of the problems were after transplant and I didn't get the brown ring, but the roots shrivelled below the soil surface and germination was also spotty. I follow Craig's style of growing seedlings.)

Last night I did some more reading on seedling DO and it can occur in transplants up to maybe 5-6 inches tall but it says that there always are those constricted lesions just below or at the soil line where the stem is girdled.

So if you're not seeing that then I wonder if it's just a case of death by water, as in the mix being too wet thus rotting the roots directly.

Did you ever see constricted stems at the soil line with newly germinated seedlings that hadn't been yet transplanted?

Any specific varieties that died that I might have a special interest it? Not a problem if so, for there's always next year.

The kitchen of the farmhouse I was raised in was the orignal log cabin from the mid 1700's. The newest addition was the one built by the Shakers in 1883.

The only non-dirt floor in the cellar is the concrete slab that was put in for the oil burning furnace when we switched from the monster coal burning one.

I could be down there and see the water dripping off the rock walls and the accumulated "growths" that thrived.

So yes, I understand damp basements, very well, thank you.

[travis]

"Last night I did some more reading on seedling DO and it can occur in transplants up to maybe 5-6 inches tall but it says that there always are those constricted lesions just below or at the soil line where the stem is girdled." [Carolyn]

Carolyn,

Okay now! That's what I need to read about. Can you refer me to the source.

This March I lost about 3 dozen seedlings to D.O. exactly like that. They were all 4 - 6 inches tall, looking very healthy, and I was very careful not to over water even to the point of letting them dry out and wilt just a little before watering.

This was when they were all under florescent lights in the garage at about 55 - 65F continuously.

Then I took them outdoors to begin hardening off on nice days, and one afternoon the temp. dropped down 45 before I got them all back indoors. The next morning about 3 dozen seedlings showed droopy leaves that eventually turned under and showed purplish undersides. This was restricted to only certain varieties including all the Brandy Boy F1s, Marions, West Virginia '63s, Bloody Butchers, and Brandywine Reds. It didn't seem to affect the other couple of hundred seedlings I was shufflin' around at the time (and curiously enough did not affect any of the Brandy Boy F2s or F3s, or PL Brandywines).

The big thing related to what you posted, however, is that every one of the seedlings that died showed black atrophy at the dirt line and every seedling I was able to keep alive ended up girdled at the soil line ... no nice green or purple bark ... just bare woody stalk with bark above the scar and roots below the dirt line.

I trashed them all. But I'd really like to know what caused that. It apparently was dampening off, but it seemed to be related to a temperature thing where maybe just the surface of the soil in the cells got a quick temp. drop, and then when I brought them back inside, maybe there was some condensation at the soil line that was just too cold for the stems. You think?

Anyway, is that material about girdling in association with 5 - 6 inch seedlings available online? I did not lose a single seedling out of almost 400 germinations to D.O. other than those few more advanced seedlings that DO'd during intitial hardening off as described.

PV

[Catntree]

No worries, Carolyn. I have two healthy seedlings of those hearts, as well as most of the ones with high interest....

I lost some of the Green WR varieties, and some of my crosses and a few others....annoying.....I lost all my Eckert Polish, the Dutchman, Little Lucky, etc....

I have plenty of seedlings to keep me happy....300, or so.

Here's a wild idea....should I turn on the 1000W HPS light? It Really cranks out the light and heat.....I rarely use it because of the expense of running it, and it's more for my flower seedlings....but this would be a good time if it would help....

What do you all think?

[carolyn137]

(Anyway, is that material about girdling in association with 5 - 6 inch seedlings available online? I did not lose a single seedling out of almost 400 germinations to D.O. other than those few more advanced seedlings that DO'd during intitial hardening off as described.)


Online? I don't know b'c I've never looked. My gold standard for good info is the Seminis Tomato Diseases Book, softcover, and the data is from the outstanding Petoseed lab and studies, and it's the pictures from Petoseed that one finds at the TAMU site and others, but not the detailed info found in the book.

It's available at TGS and I'm sure elsewhere.

Rereading again it does say that "Damping off tends to be most severe under conditions of high soil moisture, overcrowding, compaction, and cool, damp weather"

And there's a picture of transplants in plastic cells showing transplants that I estimate to be about 4-6 inches tall, actually two pictures of post emergent transplants. And showing the different pathology of the root and stem structures found with the different DO fungal genera/species.

[Organic_Nut]

Serenade will eat all the damping off spores and other fungi and bacteria etc. this is excellent.

it will work in the soil also. you can add a few drops to your water when you wet down the seed starting mix.

or spray this onto the new emergent stems.

spray onto the seeds.

use in water to wet the seeds.

www.agraquest.com

it was suppose to be available at wal mart but the professional growers buy this so you can find it at their supply houses like

www.griffins.com

another one that works is

ZeroTolerance kills everything but only lasts a shorter time. the serenade will last a longer time.

I like Serenade for fungus problems, ZeroTolerance for quick sterilization. Griffins has both.

I like both because they are Organic.

[carolyn137]

For Tree and organic:

Tree, I have no experience at all with HPS lights so I can't be of help here. What's to lose at this point, say I, but you're an experienced grower and I think any decision you make will be the right one.

So glad to hear about those hearts.

Organic:

... and I quote

(Serenade will eat all the damping off spores and other fungi and bacteria etc. this is excellent.

it will work in the soil also. you can add a few drops to your water when you wet down the seed starting mix.

or spray this onto the new emergent stems.

spray onto the seeds.)


Sorry, but none of the above is true.

I do think it would be best if you did some Googling and found out how Serenade and Messenger ( aka Harpin) and Spinosad actually work.

None of them work by directly killing anything. They are all supposed to be general systemic inducers that increase the plant's ability to handle some infectious diseases.

Nor can they do anything if sprayed on seeds.

At another site I think I did make some comments to you already about some of these products.

They hold great promise, according to many, but the results in home gardens are still not crystal clear b'c of folks not using controls.

But you really do have to recognize that they are NOT contact products, rather, general internal systemic inducers.

None of them can kill fungal spores or bacteria, so adding to the soil is useless, as is spraying plants already infected systemically, as is true with damping off.