Mandy's Greenhouse

[heritagehollow]

Crazy talk it may be. Then you explain why when obtaining seed for one variety, from 7 different seed suppliers, that I have 5 different versions of color, ie) Striped German for example? Will the real one please stand up???
You explain that!

[nctomatoman]

Easy. Because it is either a variety that was not stable when it started getting passed around/shared, or when it was more widely distributed, it had become crossed, so you are getting segregation.

Think about it - say you have a variety that has been maintained for over a hundred years, such as Ponderosa. When Henderson released it, it was fixed to be a large, pink fruited, regular leaf variety. Certainly, over the years, so many people saved seed that inevitable crossing, or more rarely, mutations occur - then after growing and selecting, something different becomes favored, and it gets a new name - Joe's Favorite, for example. It is not Ponderosa - Ponderosa is pink and regular leaf. But Joe's Favorite originated from crosses or mutations from Ponderosa.

The way that so many different tomato varieties exist is because of just this - chance crossings, seed saving, selection, stabilization, occasional mutation. They end up getting new and different names - since they are new and different varieties.

But a Cherokee Purple will always have large purple oblate fruit on a regular leaf plant. Brandywine will always be pink, large and potato leaf. Aker's West Virginia will always be large, regular leaf and red.

If in growing any of those out you get something different looking in leaf shape or fruit type, it should be considered the starting point of a new variety, not a "variation" of the authentic article.

[heritagehollow]

Exactly! If only yellow came out of Mexico and red ones came out of Spain, where did the black ones come from and the white ones, the oranges, the bi-colors, the stripes, the 3 tones, the fruity-flavored, the citrus-flavored, the 6" tall, the 12 ft tall, the ruffled, the pointy, the dry, the juicy, etc, etc, etc.....
Indeed corn and peppers and the like are notorious for crossing. Tomatoes are capable of crossing, too, JUST not as much....when after they have been stabilized! Where did 4000+ varieties then come from...if this was NOT the case?

[Mischka]

Originally Posted by heritagehollow

Tomatoes are capable of crossing, too, JUST not as much....when after they have been stabilized!

Could you please clarify what you mean by the above statement, Mandy?

Are you agreeing that an stable variety can cross with another variety after it has been stabilized, or do you believe that a tomato plant can create and donate new genetic material, i.e. "cross itself" through self-pollination?

I don't want to jump to an incorrect conclusion before I give my opinion, thanks.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by heritagehollow

Exactly! If only yellow came out of Mexico and red ones came out of Spain, where did the black ones come from and the white ones, the oranges, the bi-colors, the stripes, the 3 tones, the fruity-flavored, the citrus-flavored, the 6" tall, the 12 ft tall, the ruffled, the pointy, the dry, the juicy, etc, etc, etc.....
Indeed corn and peppers and the like are notorious for crossing. Tomatoes are capable of crossing, too, JUST not as much....when after they have been stabilized! Where did 4000+ varieties then come from...if this was NOT the case?

The initial yellow ones sustained a mutation, either a seed DNA one or a somatic mutation. A good example of a somatic mutation is the variety Green Gage, which is yellow and in my garden I was lucky to see a somatic mutation that led to one branch having only red fruits. Seeds saved from those red fruits come true. It's a pre-1800 variety and I found one bit of info that said it had existed as both a red and yellow but only the yellow is commonly seen these days.

Black ones appeared first in the Crimean region of the former USSR.

Gold/red bicolors first showed up in Germany or nearby.

There are about 15K OP named varieties now known and perhaps about 6K that are available commercially. It's been estimated that about 90% of all heirlooms first arose by natural cross pollination and then some astute gardener or farmer had to dehybridize that initial F1 hybrid and make selections to get to an OP form, which takes from 3 to 10 years to do depending on which genes are being selected for.

The other 5% are felt to have arisen by genetic mutation from preexisting varieties.

The biological diversity shown by tomatoes is tremendous. And we can't discount all the folks who are now doing directed crosses and developing some wonderful new varieties.

The many genes that pertain to plant habit, color, leaf form, etc., can be found listed at the UC Rick Center or at the website for the Cornell Tomato Gene project.

it's usually the combination of the genes for epidermis color as well as genes for flesh color that determines the final color of a fruit.

If you look at the Crossing Forum here you'll see that many are involved in crossing varieties to get new combinations of colors, tastes, etc. I know some basic tomato genetics but there are some others who post in that Forum who know far more than I do.

Looking at the various crosses made in the Dwarf Forums is also interesting in terms of the genetics involved and what they expect for this or that cross. The development of those Dwarfs is a significant project and there are several varieties that are genetically stabilized and will soon be available at some selected commercial sites.

[heritagehollow]

When I refer to tomato varieties crossing, I mean only in the natural sense...not manually manipulated...nor lab. crosses.
If one were to plant 2 very different strong "shown-to-be" stable varieties in a garden, side by side for several years, (saving each year fresh seed from both...) eventually changes (whether they be in fruit size or colour or plant structure...) will become noticeable in both. This I have seen with my own eyes. I have had to throw out a variety, because it no longer represented its given name! You cannot stop the wind or insects or environment from doing what is natural to them.
IF...you interrupt the process (and shield one group of plants from the other, whether it be by distance or a physical barrier...) making manual selections...then you could be assured the type would remain "true". And STILL on a rare occasion a "variant" is possible.
If, a tomato variety has not yet found its "groove", despite several years of selection...it will become unraveled sooner than the stable one. This is obvious.
Examples of how this happens, was mentioned in a previous thread. Nature will eventually have its way and "man" will be there right along side, helping it along.
I will venture to say (in answer to your question...) that both are possible! As the famous "story" of how Big Zebra was born, a tomato is capable of causing a cross from within...and yet this offspring can become stable. AND it is capable of crossing with others. (As an occasional record of mine has shown...)
I am not a scientist. I am only an observer and watcher.

[Mischka]

It's clear to me that your knowledge of tomato genetics is mostly based upon anecdotal evidence and not empirical scientific evidence. Much of what you posted so far is incorrect.

You have the right to believe whatever you wish to believe as factual but please be aware that if I feel that you're doing a disservice to our members by posting erroneous information, I will dispute it and allow others to as well.

As for your seed selling venture, I would advise our members NOT to purchase seed from you.

This is based on the fact that you intentionally sell seed for known varieties that are not "true-to-type" as the originals, in addition to misrepresenting hybrid varieties as heirlooms.

As evidence to this, both descriptions below were copied and pasted from your website and bolded by me for emphasis:

Japanese Black Trifele – (aka “Japanese Trifele Black”) Plants for this variety are supposed to be potato-leafed. Mine were reg. leafed….and not interesting. The fruits on the other hand, were very interesting. The shape (for mine….) were like an elongated “oxheart”, with dark reddish brown skin base and black shoulders. The flavors were a combination of “oxhearts” and “blacks”! Wow! Other growers though, describe this one as being “pear-shaped”, which leads me to investigate this one further. When I checked their photos against mine, there was a definite difference in which way the ”bulge” hung….up or down! Anyway….it is too nice to discard! So I will offer this un-decided variety….until further notice! No defects! Terrific taste! One of the prettiest forms to grow. 6-10oz fruits. Ind. 70 days

Burpee’s Supersteak – introduced in 1980 (!) as a modern version of our old-fashioned beefsteak. Apparently it is improved! They say the fruits have more acidic flavor, the outer skin is smoother AND they are less prone to “catfacing”. The “inner core” is also smaller with a definite tiny blossom end scar. Last year (2008) produced a ton of them….all rose/red and huge….1-2 lbs. Ind. 85 days

From Burpee's Website:

Tomato Burpee's Supersteak Hybrid
Customer Favorite
Our favorite super size tomato - most fruits weigh 2 lbs.
80 days. Our favorite super size tomato - most fruits weigh 2 lbs. Original beefsteak flavor and meaty texture.
Burpee bred. Indeterminate.

There are more examples of inaccurate information on your website, but for the sake of brevity I'll end here. I think I've made my point...

[heritagehollow]

Thank you for your thoughts.
When I recall other seed suppliers in this country as well, as in the US, I see one line descriptions for their heirloom tomatoes. There is not much there. AND no one talks to them, as I have been "talked to".
When you enter into mine, you see a lot of information, not just history but how the plant performs as well. (Does that make me more vulnerable?) I am sincere about promoting heirloom history.
I do not dispute what you say. I has me thinking. I am retired now AND I will keep my general thoughts to myself. It will not be a problem to keep my descriptions to the point, accurate and clear.
BTW, The variety of Japanese B T I have does have a potato leaf AND the right form and color of fruit...NOW. But, thank you for pointing this out to me.
In the beginning, I had not the knowledge as I do now. I have since discovered that there are places to avoid and places to look at. I am not above digging in and taking it all the way.
Were I a coward, after receiving the kind of public comments that I received, most people would have turned tail and run. I am not a coward. (AND not EVERYTHING on the site is incorrect!) I consider this experience an important step in my life. It has given me a "thicker skin" and a clearer mind.
May I also be so bold and ask the help of some of your knowledgeable members in this journey. Thank you AND Happy Growing!

[heritagehollow]

On a final note,
I keep hearing the word "science" alot...

There are millions and millions of greenhouse operators, seeds-men, nursery houses and gardeners covering the entire earth.
I would be safe to say that a very, very, small % of them have a complimentary scientific background.

Are you implying that WE ALL require in-depth scientific knowledge in order to grow, promote and share heirloom vegetables?

[nctomatoman]

If people are to become involved with sharing our agricultural treasure, then it is extremely important to have sufficient knowledge of what a variety is, some basic genetic understanding of how plants can be maintained as pure varieties, and understanding of what varieties are supposed to be. Otherwise, our rich agricultural, genetic heritage will become lost. So, yes, some of us care deeply about maintaining purity and knowledge of our cherished open pollinated varieties.

[dice]

If a variety is not correct (does not match the descriptions
in, say, TOMATObase, the NCSU cultivar list, Vent Marin,
Seeds of Diversity, the Cornell Vegetable Varieties database,
Dave's Garden Plantfiles, and so on, URL's below), but you
like it, simply change the name.

Example: Instead of listing your variant "should have been
Japanese Black Trifele but is different" as Japanese Black
Trifele, call it "Japanese Ninja" or something like that (after
a web search for "tomato 'Japanese Ninja'", to make sure
that the name is not already in use for something else).

Where to look up information on varieties that you get
seeds for, to see if what you grow out is what it was
supposed to be:
http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Main_Page
http://cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cucurbit/w...vgclintro.html
http://translate.google.com/translat...hl=EN&ie=UTF-8
(If you speak French, you can get Vent Marin untranslated,
it will be faster.)
http://www.seeds.ca/proj/tomato/cdntomatoes.php
http://vegvariety.cce.cornell.edu/ma...ESC&searchIn=1
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/fin...&submit=submit

And of course you can always ask here if you have doubts.

This site discusses the way tomato genetics work in the
progression from the first generation of a hybrid, chance
or not, to a stable open-pollinated variety:
http://kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes.html
(Read all three pages.)

A guide to all of the known tomato genes:
http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Genes.html

You can get from Regular Leaf to Potato Leaf or back in
one generation via mutation, but that is rare. Almost all
such oddities showing up in people's growouts come from
chance bee-made crosses (or stray seeds, where the oddity
is simply some completely other variety that is itself already
stable).

Note that in genetics, there is occasionally more than one
way to skin a cat. This post lists the different genes that
can produce dark fruit, for example, and which well known
varieties have which ones:
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...gf5#post172876

In my humble opinion, the way forward is not to try to defend
only having had part of the picture in the past. It is to do
research and ask questions, find out the truth, and then edit
the site's web pages to reflect already known reality. I do not
see how it could hurt sales, and it does not leave the vendor
open to criticism for a cavalier attitude toward accurate
description of what they have for sale.

When someone says, "this description is not correct, because
the named variety is actually like this", the wise response
is "Thank you," (then verify it in the online databases and fix
it if that information is correct).

[heritagehollow]

For a while I had serious doubts and tribulations for coming "out of the woodwork". However, after seeing what has transpired...I have no regrets. I have learned a lot!
I am especially greatful for this newest response. This was what I was looking for. Hope more respond.

Thank you!

[dice]

PS: Japanese Black Trifele (or Japanese Trifele Black as Tania
calls it) is actually Russian in origin, and no one knows how it
got the "Japanese" moniker anyway.

[Striped German and similar]
There are a few named varieties where you will not find any
solid agreement on the all of the characteristics of it. Oxheart
is a good example. You can find them determinate,
semi-determinate, and indeterminate, red or pink,
early mid-season to late, and so on. It is a generic name
which has been used for several genetically distinct cultivars
that all share that same fruit shape, more or less (some are
blunt hearts, some are quite pointy, and so on).

Rutgers is one where there is a version that performs like
a determinate, getting about 3' high, and then there is
the original indeterminate version. Fruit on both types
seem to be pretty close in flavor and other characteristics.

In Appalachia in the US, there have been a lot of "German
this and German that" tomatoes that are not necessarily
the same cultivar, even if they have the same name. They
probably share some common ancestor in most cases from
the late 1800s or early 1900s, but many of them have been
grown in relative isolation for decades in one small area.
Their characteristics have diverged here and there as different
farmers have made selections from a plant that had some
small beneficial mutation or was a chance cross. They
shared seeds with the neighbors, who continued to grow
that particular version of it for generations.

Most of the best-known and most widely grown heirlooms,
however, are one particular tomato, and people know it when
they see it, slice it open, and take a bite.