Rey Humberto or King Umberto

[Tom Wagner]

Carolyn,

It is interesting what a little research of an old variety creates depending on who is doing it! I sent an email to my source, Taryn, for her source of King Umberto in anticipation of at least resolving what I have used in breeding work.

So many nooks and crannies caught my eye as I looked into the internet connections with key words....Chiswick, Re, Roi, Rey, Umberto, Humbert, Humberto, etc. All I wanted was the proper phenotype description for what I used to make crosses. Little did I think there could be so much to cause confusion as to synonyms, and distinct germplasm differences. This variety is so fraught with dichotomous and diverse lineage that I fear no one will sort it all out. In fact, I rather like the associated discord and it provides credence to what many older tomato breeders have admitted to me. Basically it was an answer to the question..."If one has the same variety and someone else has the same variety and many generations have separated the two collections...are they the same?" No, was the answer.

No..... as the default answer implies that breeders experience bottle necking, variety admixture, out crossing, mutation, faulty records, and plain re-selection. A variety like the Umberto type has traveled far and wide for a long time. Viva la diferencia!

Ventmarin says
King Umberto..... no picture but says to see Roi Humbert
I don’t know if that he thinks they are the same or just the names are linked somehow.

Chiswick Red as a synonym for King Umberto?
Chiswick shows up on GRIN and a couple of photos help distinguish it.
Chiswick Red or Red Chiswick PI 645002


The fruit of Chiswick
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/4kSNZDN.png[/IMG]
Very different shape from the Humberto/Umberto types





The leaf of Chiswick
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/oGZ44ID.png[/IMG]




The German version
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/5Hl0x8F.png?1[/IMG]
No points on the German type




Tatiana’s
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ZNp1qDX.jpg[/IMG]
It has points




Underwood/Terroir
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/xYdOcd5.jpg[/IMG]
It also has points


Solana Seeds has much to say...

Re Umberto
Notice the spelling
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ZZY2PMW.png[/IMG]
Does not look like King Umberto



Solana states:

Old italian variety named after King Umberto. Paste type, like Roma and San Marzano, with oval shaped, 6 cm, deep red fruits. For sauces or fresh eating. This one will ripen very slowly on the plant. So make sure to wait until it is turns completely red. About 90 days. Rare! (This is not the "King Umberto" Tomato.)

Solana then suggests to read this:
King Umberto, a tomato in exile

"It is a matter of synonyms" Alberto Olivucci

http://www.gondrano.it/agric/reumbert.htm


The translation…for what it is worth….
http://www.freetranslation.com/translation.html#!/505037985fe01ac20407b80a/505037985fe01ac20407b7fb/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gondrano.it%2Fagric%2Freumbert.ht m

[carolyn137]

Tom, I noted above that there were so many ways of expressing this variety that I was having trouble searching

You've linked to several of the links I was going to put up, so now I don't need to do that.

For what it SHOULD look like I'd go back to some of the pictures in the older catalogs from the Ventmarin link I gave,

And MOST helpful are the line drawings, a single fruit, a cluster of fruits and a smaller single fruit showing the square shape of the fruit, and description in the first English edition of Vilmorin in1885,

I'm going to laboriusly, ahem, copy down all of that description. And laboriously since it's near the end of that very fat book, I can't keep the page open, so have to type one handed.

KING HUMBERT TOMATO (Tomate Roi Humbert)

This variety, which is probably derived from the pear-shaped tomato, is distinguished by its rather peculiar form and appearance. The fruit, which grows in clusters of from 5 to 10, is of a pretty regular shape, but is frequently flattened on four sides, so that a section of it, espeically near the end, presents a nearly square outline. It is about the size of a small hen's egg and of a very bright scarlet colour. The plant is of average height and earliness, and a most extraordinary cropper, with spreading leaves that are not curled,. The new English variety called Chiswick Red comes so near this variety that we think one might be very easily mistaken for the other.

$$$$$

There are no nipples shown.

I couldn't get your translation of the Italian article to display.

From the 2006 SSE YEarbook listing for King Humbert.

From Belgium;aka Re Umberto),indet,red shaped fruit, excellent paste

From Denmark:, aka Konig Humbert, indet,pear shaped, egg sized,scarlet fruits in clusters of 8-10 or more, tasty,amazingly prolific, midseason but crops well until first frost ( smooth, slightly thick skin), described in Vilmorin 1885, introduced to Denmark same period, trialed by Royal Hort Soc England in1887,reintroduced to England in1970's from Gatersleben Gene Bank.

&&&&

No mention of nipples and I went back to Bill Minkey's listing and he said nothing about nipples either,his source was Norbert in France, as I described above and I'm pretty sure that my seeds were from Bill and I don't remember any nipples either,just the tough skin.


Carolyn

[Tom Wagner]

Carolyn, the translation, albeit awkward, is below.
If someone could edit the translation from Italian to English a bit better...an early thanks!


It sounds like the King Umberto was dropped from a national listing due to a problem of synonyms, not to say we have problems in this country. lol. Tomatoes with the same name, homonymic, but actually different varieties...may be the issue. A variety can be more popular by name than by the actual tomato seed.

"The king Umberto is one of the few national tomatoes at that time which was appreciated and cultivated in half of the world."

The question I have is...Are some of the Humbert, Humberto, Umberto collections more like San Marzano or the more oval Umberto?





[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/yIMmC0m.png?1[/IMG]

King Umberto, a tomato in exile

I began to discover the existence of the tomato King Umberto reading a rehash of the wonderful book of Vilmorin-Andrieux "The Vegetable Garden" which in turn was the American edition of a book published previously in France by this family of seed companies, whose name stands still today. Printed the first time in 1885, it was a collection of news on biodiversities semi commercial at that time spread between the two continents, and describes hundreds of plants with meticulous care, giving also information on their culinary usage and the culture to which they were linked. Also contains information on the techniques of agriculture before the days of chemistry. Contemplating the engravings on this book of the ancient plants i was dazzled by the changeable forms that the biodiversitdipinge on the palette of the fields and i have asked perchabbiamo lost all this without doing anything, without intervening before. For a long time i waited that arise some initiative in Italy that followed the example of seed savers in the rest of the world and offer my collaboration, but in vain. For this reason alone I broke the delay and i felt was appropriate to launch my proposals. AND the history of tomato King Umberto seems to be made specially for you to understand what happened to the old varietche without us are defenseless. The king Umberto one of the few national tomatoes at that time was appreciated and cultivated in half of the world. This is the main reason to put it back on the book of Vilmorin. This same tomato found him in the some time even on a whole series of old catalogs of the catalog (Sgaravatti)? Tideland Signal Limited company ranging from 1910 to 1940, received on loan from a collector. The descriptions some synthetic dedicated to him described him as a "must": no catalog could do without him. The image shown on the catalogs was always the same as the book of Vilmorin: a nice tomato from dark oval shape. Also the captions were always very generous. But where today the tomato King Umberto? I began to ask him at my cooperative of seed growers. One of the engineers was remembered to have seen him in a field test of the ETOILE PEREIRE in the midst of hundreds more. But puancora purchase? Where can I find it? Was wondering if anyone without that nobody i knew respond. On commercial catalogs available to me there was no and i began to suspect that it was also deleted him from official registers. Cosper short approached the question to an official of the ministry to know what company seed nor might preserve purity the seed. Dear the negative response:
"This year the King Umberto was deleted.
"As cleared, but a tomato historical, has more than centoventanni. You know that was called cosdal name of the King that unified Italy?
"Yes of course, but the problem that the seed companies that were selling, made into the sachets at breakie seeds of tomatoes that resemble but were not King Umberto and then THE ETOILE PEREIRE nor has decreed that the deletion".
"But I hope that in seed banks there is still a sample."
"Unfortunately we gicercato and not if it finds"
"But then you are telling me that due to the lack of controls pudefinire extinct."
"Perhaps it still find ourselves, then we are proposing to seed companies."
Then phone the Etoile Pereire, the ministerial component that should have monitored the distribution in purity also of this cultivar, and I confirm that everything. Then I called the bank half of arcades that the only to have a collection of italian tomatoes and curator i responds that "the King Umberto then cossimile to S. Marzano. What's the problem?
"But she has never seen that S. Marzano slightly squared and and umbonate profiles and King Umberto perfectly oval?
"For me are the same thing".
"Then the king Umberto does not exist: but then what they sold the catalogs of the Tideland Signal Limited in the past?
"It is a matter of synonyms".
The evidences are under the eyes of all instead: the official catalog shows the different types of S. Marzano but never defines the King Umberto as homonym. The fact that no one wants to admit that a varietche is part of the Italian history has been lost due to negligence, perchchi was paid to monitor or to preserve has not done so. Which solution puadottare a seed saver (as me that I subscribe to Seed Savers Exchange 45$ sob! I pay)? Simple: open the yearbook of the seeds in an exchange where there was always a place for the King Humbert Tomato collected in Italy in the years '50 is still kept by several members of the network. A Christmas list, $2 and the tomato in exile back more quickly that the males of the house of Savoy. And this summer he grew up in my garden, patiently enduring two months of drought the poor soil and stony of my hill, the few cures of the undersigned that transforms always the garden in a survival camp, giving despite all good fruits ovals, and dark red as in the engravings of 115 years ago. Great for dry and sauce, vigorous plants, too, if you want the seeds not harrassment in a row that i have not for all. Thanks seed savers, thanks Earth, through Heaven. It takes me a little to be happy, but that satisfaction.

Alberto Olivucci
President of CiviltContadina
June 30, 2003

When Olivucci writes: if you want the seeds do not harrassment in a row that I do not have for all you can trust him: last year gave it i wondered, me li has promised me he sent (the elbow macaroni can infestargli the ortho!!! ). I've had at last this year, by another member of CiviltContadina. AND having cosavuto way to accommodate myself to my garden the King Umberto, can I add that I don't see how it might be confused with the San Marzano. Suffice it to say the photography reported in opening page, that plays a sample of the harvest, for realizing it.
In addition, on a treaty the years '50 the two varietsono both cited as precisely two varietdistinte. It is worth to carry the pitch, that between the tomatoes to keep lists:
The San Marzano, originating in the province of Salerno, cylindrical, elongated, with two lateral depressions parallel along 6-8 cm with flesh , red-alive, a few seeds and peel red-alive;
And a few lines below:
Between the tomatoes from Serbian, much sought after in the South, are prevalent Fiascone or King Umberto, the Fiaschetto, or tomato sauce a bunch of Nocera; the bulb, which probably derived from San Marzano; ( ... ) These varietdebbono be late and matured on the tree eradicated and hung in a dry place and possibly sunny; usually hanging to the houses on the walls facing south ( * ).
Therefore not only two varietdiverse but also belonging to two classes of varietdiverse, preserves the one, by Serbian the other. But don't try everything cisu treaties and catalogs contemporaries: as you rightly note Olivucci, King Umberto have lost track.

Philip Eugenio Tontini

( * ) Enrico Pantanelli, herbaceous crops, Agricultural Editions, Bologna, 1955

Tideland Signal is likely a poor translation ...

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/weuIHdi.png?1[/IMG]


[QUOTE]Tideland Signal Limited company ranging from 1910 to 1940
catalog Sgaravatti [/QUOTE

Tomato seed of the variety fiascone translates to little flagons. Aka pitchers

Like San Marzano?

Fiaschetto as pictured below...means flask.


The cross I made with King Umberto pollen was to Flaming Burst.

Flaming Burst is a teardrop or droplet shaped tomato. Crossing a
Gocciolina = Droplet or Teardrop = Lacrima to a fiaschetto or fiascone shape is going to come up with a variety of shapes in the F-2. Luck will have it that I will find even new shapes eventually. Whatever historic tomato clone King Umberto derives from is of no real concern excepting keeping the record straight.

Ooh...I just got a message from my source for the KIng Umberto...it was Underwood/Terroir
The selection I have should look like this...

[carolyn137]

Tom, I don't have time to make but a few comments since my surgery is scheduled for this week and I have lots of other priorities right now/

While the Underwood link, which is one I also have, shows what they call King Humbert and speak of Vilmorin, what is shown at Vilmorin, as I typed above, are square looking fruits that are often seen, not what Underwood and some others show.

There was one of your links, I don't remember which one, that did show square looking fruits.

In my 2013 seed offer,seeds produced in the summer of 2012, there were three small red cherries offered;

Durmitor, from Serbia
Nano Cilega, fromItaly
Fiaschetto, from Italy

I had all three grown at home here in 2012 and in my notes I say that Fiaschetto was a small red cherry with a nipple, not square, nothing like that/

Nano Cilega was a small red cherry/

And the best tasting one was Durmitor,also a small red cherry, from Serbia.

I put up a performance thread each Fall I make a seed offe r so that folks can report back what they got, how they liked it,many show pictures, so we'll see what others got for Fiaschetto. I know already that there was probably crossed seed for Durmitor, and I'm curious to see what others got for that one.

Here's my seed offer for 2013, seeds produced in 2012, just so you can take a Look if you want to.

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=26028

The Italians keep insisting that King Humbert originated in Italy, I can understand why, but that goes against the Ventmarin info that says it was named in the US in honor of King Umberto. Yes, presumably something brought to the US by Italian immigrants, but unnamed, which was so true of so many seeds brought to the US by immigrants from many countries.

But what Underwood is selling, and refers to Vilmorin, is not what Vilmorin says it should be and I'm glad I copied word for word what was in the Vilmorin English edition of 1885, which I've had for many years.

No nipples were shown on the line drawings from Vilmorin, as noted in what I copied from the description.

So what questions remain?

As I said, you did have one link that showed, in color, the square shape of what Roi Umberto is supposed to be, but I don't have time to go back and note which one it was.

Carolyn

[MrBig46]

The tomato King Umberto is an old Italian variety, selected in the nineteenth century, whose name is a tribute to King Umberto I of Italy, for his first visit to Naples in 1878. It is an excellent tomato sauce and preserves, but also from Serbia: at the end of the season if they estirpavano plants and was put on the walls facing south, to dry them.

http://oryctesblog.blogspot.cz/2012/...e-umberto.html

I think, that tomato Re Umberto has two history from 1878 year. One is history comercial ( the bigining Vilmorin) and second is a less interesting history, which farmers wrote on the
root of Vesuvio. Maybe Re Umberto is planting there in some small hamlet where farmers bought seeds never. We possibly don´t fight out this problem on the internet.

http://www.agricoltura.regione.campa.../piennolo.html

Vladimír

[Fusion_power]

Tom, remind me to send you some Piennolo del Vesuvio seed. It is an interesting variety for a number of traits including thick skin that has low moisture permeability.

[Doug9345]

It's an interesting suggestion Vladmir that the name may have been applied to different tomatoes right from the beginning.

[MrBig46]

TYPE A TOMATO Piennolo - Varieties of cherry tomatoes in clusters that are suitable to be kept hanging in the air, suitable for traditional sauces . Fruit medium-small, elongated weighing 20-30 grams, thick skin, the sweet taste prevails over the acid component. The collection is made when all the fruits have turned to red.Cultivation , long-cycle varieties lends itself be planted late in the season and cultivated with little intervention irrigation. The development of the plant is indeterminate and requires support. parasitic Attacks : Moderately resistant to insects and cryptogamic attack. Pruning green : it requires little effort to scacchiatura and sfemminellatura. transplant Distance : cm. About 70 from row to row, cm. 25 about the row.
Pienollo del Vesuvio=Fiaschella; Pienollo del Vesuvio=Lampadina; Pienollo del Vesuvio=Patanara; Pienollo del Vesuvio=Principe Borghese; Pienollo del Vesuvio=Re Umberto; Pienollo del Vesuvio=???.
Vladimír

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by MrBig46

Pruning green : it requires little effort to scacchiatura and sfemminellatura. transplant Distance : cm. About 70 from row to row, cm. 25 about the row.

Vladimír

I didn't realize that they planted them that dense. Is there a reason behind that except to save space?

[MrBig46]

Originally Posted by Doug9345

I didn't realize that they planted them that dense. Is there a reason behind that except to save space?

I aspire to plant Principe Borghese anyhow pienollo tomatoes are planted on the Vesuvio. This is extract from „Production Regulations the Protected Designation of Origin "Tomato Piennolo of Vesuvius"-

Plant: must be carried out between 15 March and 15 May with the planting of rooted plants
in seedbeds prepared the soil or growing tray.
Systems and planting distances: the planting density should be between 15 to 30 cm
on the row and between 80 and 120 cm between the rows.

http://www.agricoltura.regione.campa.../piennolo.html


Vladimír.

[Fusion_power]

The only tomatoes that I would plant at that density are compact determinates such as Principe Borghese. This is roughly 1 foot by 2 feet planting density.

[MrBig46]

I posted this question on the italian web- http://www.agraria.org/ :
Are they growing around of Vesuvio likewise the old varieties of tomato ( Fiaschella, Re Umberto and Patanara) or only Principe Borghese ?
The answer:
are grown only that it is difficult to find the seeds xchè every farmer jealously guards them
should be in possession of a little hanging cherry tomatoes and retrieve the seeds
The moderator Eugenio- he live direct in the area of Vesuvio ( San Giorgio Cremano)
Vladimír

[tlintx]

Is "Piennolo del Vesuvio" (the potato leaf from Tatiana's) a specific variety or a type? I started wondering after reading the recent threads on the piennolo types.

[MrBig46]

I hanged up last Principe Borghese.
Vladimír

[Doug9345]

Nice. What will the green ones do? It looks like some haved started to blush yet.