willow and kelp

[Itoero]

Both willow and kelp contain growth hormones.
Does anyone knows which ones?
Does anyone uses willow as fertilizer?

[Doug9345]

In willow it's auxins IBA (Indolebutyric Acid) and SA (Salicytic Acid). Where I am a willow branch laying on the wet ground will grow roots and stems. I don't see willow as being any better or any worse than any other chipped wood. A rooting liquid can be prepared from the young shoots of the willow tree by steeping. I don't remember if you can use boiling water or not.

Kelp I don't know about

[amideutch]

http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html

Maybe this might help. Also go to "Search" then to Advanced Search and enter Willow or Aspirin and you will get a lot of hits as we have discussed it and it's uses quite a lot.

Also check this site as they are heavy into kelp/seaweed products and are located in Ireland. I have used their products with good results.

http://www.bioatlantis.com/

[RayR]

Originally Posted by Doug9345

In willow it's auxins IPA (Indoleutyric Acid) and SA (Salicytic Acid). Where I am a willow branch laying on the wet ground will grow roots and stems. I don't see willow as being any better or any worse than any other chipped wood. A rooting liquid can be prepared from the young shoots of the willow tree by steeping. I don't remember if you can use boiling water or not.

Kelp I don't know about

According to this article, boiling water is fine for steeping willow shoots. Never made willow water myself.

All plants and algae (which kelps are) produce various root and shoot promoting auxins like indolebutyric acid (IBA) and indole-3-acetic acid acid (IAA), though IAA is more common. Various bacteria and fungi that are symbiotic partners with plants in the rhizosphere also produce IAA.

[Cole_Robbie]

Rooting hormone is so cheap that making your own out of willow would be more of a novelty than anything else. I think most of the value of kelp is in its micro-nutrients, absorbed from the ocean.

[Itoero]

Is it true that kelp powder is a lot more active then liquid kelp?
Liquid kelp is a lot easier to apply, so I'm a bit puzzled on what to buy.

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

Rooting hormone is so cheap that making your own out of willow would be more of a novelty than anything else. I think most of the value of kelp is in its micro-nutrients, absorbed from the ocean.

It's all relative to how much time you have and how much you earn. To spend $5 on something I can make in a half hour is equivalent to earning $12 to $14 per hour which is more than three quarters of the jobs pay around here.

[Itoero]

Do you know of a store that ships to europe?
The kelp I can get here is very over-prized.

[Doug9345]

If you are asking about rooting powder it must be available in Europe. It just may have another name even in English.

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

Rooting hormone is so cheap that making your own out of willow would be more of a novelty than anything else. I think most of the value of kelp is in its micro-nutrients, absorbed from the ocean.

There is a large study from Clemson (about 4 inches thick) about kelp as fertilizer. The micronutrients in most kelp are in covalent form, not salt form that plants can use. There are some carbohydrates in kelp that when mixed in a biologically active soil will have an auxin-like effect on plants. Over all, the gibberellic acid in kelp is the ingredient consistently shown to have efficacy.

Originally Posted by Itoero

Both willow and kelp contain growth hormones.
Does anyone knows which ones?
Does anyone uses willow as fertilizer?

Willows (the Salix family) are quite varied across the continents. I grow Dovyallis caffra for its fruit!

[RayR]

Originally Posted by Hermitian

There is a large study from Clemson (about 4 inches thick) about kelp as fertilizer. The micronutrients in most kelp are in covalent form, not salt form that plants can use. There are some carbohydrates in kelp that when mixed in a biologically active soil will have an auxin-like effect on plants. Over all, the gibberellic acid in kelp is the ingredient consistently shown to have efficacy.

No doubt that the carbs and growth hormones in kelp have interesting positive effects on the soil biology and the plants, but I think the micronutrient bioavailability in kelp is one of the strengths too. It's a misconception that all nutrients enter the plant in salt form. It may work that way in straight 100% synthetic fertilizers but it doesn't work that way in nature. The metal ions of micronutrients have to be chelated to enter plant cells. Natural chelators can be various organic acids, amino acids, fulvic acids, some sugars, ect... as opposed to salty synthetic chelators like EDTA.
10% of the dry weight of kelp lone is Mannitol, a sugar that is a powerful chelator.
The fact that kelp has a wide variety of trace elements already in chelated form which protects the ions from combining with other elements and becoming insoluble and making the micronutrients immediately bioavailable to the plant is a pretty important benefit.

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by RayR

No doubt that the carbs and growth hormones in kelp have interesting positive effects on the soil biology and the plants, but I think the micronutrient bioavailability in kelp is one of the strengths too. ...

There is no soil or biology that is going to break apart the covalent rock mineral and make it available to plants on a time line that is relevant to human lives. If you want to go in the lab and use some 1/2 molar acid that's another story.

The carb story in kelp is more interesting. The plants do not uptake them directly but instead it is consumed by a common soil bacteria which excretes an auxin-like compound that boosts plant performance. This process does not occur in foliar spray or bacteria-free hydroponic systems.

[Itoero]

There is no soil or biology that is going to break apart the covalent rock mineral and make it available to plants

It's off-topic, but what is then the use of rockdust?

[RayR]

Originally Posted by Hermitian

There is no soil or biology that is going to break apart the covalent rock mineral and make it available to plants on a time line that is relevant to human lives. If you want to go in the lab and use some 1/2 molar acid that's another story.

I'm not sure what your saying there, it goes against any science that I've ever read.
If there are no natural forces that can break a covalent bond with a nutrient mineral like in a chelate, then no life would exist, everything would starve.

Originally Posted by Hermitian

The carb story in kelp is more interesting. The plants do not uptake them directly but instead it is consumed by a common soil bacteria which excretes an auxin-like compound that boosts plant performance. This process does not occur in foliar spray or bacteria-free hydroponic systems.

Soil bacteria do consume sugars from root exudates and organic matter, but plants are also able to absorb some sugars through roots and leaves. Some sugars are able to chelate metals, that is why a molasses solution can remove rust.

What is this "auxin-like compound" that you are referring too?

Chelation involves the neutralisation of positively charged elements (cations) to facilitate their easy entry into the negatively charged plant. Minerals can be seven to ten times more plant-available in chelated form. Kelp contains a powerful chelating agent called Mannitol, which naturally chelates the full suite of cations already present in seaweed. There is also sufficient Mannitol (10% of dry weight) to offer chelation capacity for any other cations that may be applied in con★★★★★★★★ with seaweed fertilizer. FULL ARTICLE HERE

Chelates for Micronutrient Nutrition among Crops

SOIL AMENDING ATTRIBUTES OF SEAWEED

Chelating Agents

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by RayR

I'm not sure what your saying there, it goes against any science that I've ever read.
If there are no natural forces that can break a covalent bond with a nutrient mineral like in a chelate, then no life would exist, everything would starve.

The subject was covalent rock mineral in sea kelp - not chelated compounds. Check on the acid required to dissolve (for example) quartz minerals.

Originally Posted by RayR

Soil bacteria do consume sugars from root exudates and organic matter, but plants are also able to absorb some sugars ...

Again, I was referring to specific carbohydrates that are a subset of those found in A. nodosum - and the excrement produced when consumed by bacteria present in many biologically active soils. This excrement has an auxin-like effect on plants. The shelf-life is pretty short, so don't go rushing to bottle it up. It appears to be part of a symbiotic relationship that goes back through the geologic ages.

When kelp extract is used in a foliar spray, or in the nutrient solution of "true" hydroponics such as "deep water culture" or "ebb-and-flow" in sterile rock, then the above activity does not occur.

Originally Posted by RayR

What is this "auxin-like compound" that you are referring too?

The Clemson study on kelp extract in horticulture is very interesting because it includes a vast review of the literature.

Auxins and compounds with auxin-like effects have been a huge area of agricultural research for the past 60+ years. For example, they are the bread-and-butter of Abbott agricultural group. Several universities have been leaders in this area. Here locally, UC Riverside is a champion.