Thoughts on this?

GaryStPaul · April 4, 2015

In an article on seed saving in the publication The Northern Gardener, put out by theMN State Horticultural Society, I read the following: “It is generally thought that heirloom tomatoes come into their full glory after three seasons of seed saving and growing in the same area. That ‘Brandywine’ tomato will be at its tastiest after three years of this process [including fermenting, drying, proper storing of seeds] in your garden.” I’ve never heard this claim about "three seasons...in the same area." Anything to it?

Gary

JamesL · April 4, 2015

Gary,
That is interesting. Never heard this before either. "Generally thought..." by who I wonder?
It does make sense in that selecting and saving the best over years would be an improvement. How most heirlooms were developed over generations right?

joseph · April 4, 2015

I have often said that the third year is the magical year in a landrace development project...

But my projects generally involve many varieties, and promiscuous pollination and lots of crossing....

The first year eliminates the varieties that just won't grow in my garden.
The second year some of the seeds are hybrids and grow well.
The third year the children of those hybrids really shine.

I don't know if there is enough genetic diversity within a Brandywine tomato for this sort of selection to be happening and making a difference. The claim is sometimes made that there are epigenetic factors that lead to plants growing better if planted into the same conditions year after year, but they are hard to observe or measure.

In my garden, by the third year, the farmer has generally become educated and knows how to take care of the plants better. They do better because they are better taken care of.

AlittleSalt · April 4, 2015

I don't know about tomatoes, but I have grown Black Eyed Peas for 4 years like this. The original peas in 2010 came from a bag I bought at the grocery store. Each year, I saved seeds and planted them the next year. Every year has proven to grow bigger better crops.

I'm going to be trying some of them in our new garden #2. The soil isn't exactly the same as in garden #1. There is more clay in Garden #2 and it hasn't been amended for years. We'll see how they do.

bower · April 4, 2015

This is certainly interesting, and wouldn't it be nice to have some data to support it? It certainly would lend weight to growing a less-successful variety for the second and third chance, instead of dropping it from the repeat grow list.

Science doesn't handle complexity very well. Scientific method asks us to pare down the variables to one alone and keep everything else the same. This simplicity doesn't happen in the real world. Every season has variables that are uncontrolled.

I guess the best way to test tihs idea would be to set aside some of the original seed sourced, grow some and save seed for two years, and then grow the original seed and the home saved seed side by side in the third year to compare directly how they perform in the same conditions that happen to prevail in that year.

We really don't know much about genetics - we know enough to know how much we don't know. Gene expression, for sure, is influenced by environmental conditions and this could be passed on at the seed level. I don't know of any formal research that has shown otherwise. We also don't know to what extent gene expression produced by an extreme environmental change may affect mutation rate, or direct mutation in one direction or another. Again, I don't know of any research that has demonstrated the contrary ie no effect of gene expression upon subsequent mutations... someone better informed may correct me (and please do, if you know more!).

April 4, 2015	#1
GaryStPaul Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: St Paul, MN Posts: 158	Thoughts on this? In an article on seed saving in the publication The Northern Gardener, put out by theMN State Horticultural Society, I read the following: “It is generally thought that heirloom tomatoes come into their full glory after three seasons of seed saving and growing in the same area. That ‘Brandywine’ tomato will be at its tastiest after three years of this process [including fermenting, drying, proper storing of seeds] in your garden.” I’ve never heard this claim about "three seasons...in the same area." Anything to it? Gary

April 4, 2015	#2
JamesL Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 1,992	Gary, That is interesting. Never heard this before either. "Generally thought..." by who I wonder? It does make sense in that selecting and saving the best over years would be an improvement. How most heirlooms were developed over generations right?

April 4, 2015	#3
joseph Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: Cache Valley, N/E of The Great Salt Lake Posts: 1,244	I have often said that the third year is the magical year in a landrace development project... But my projects generally involve many varieties, and promiscuous pollination and lots of crossing.... The first year eliminates the varieties that just won't grow in my garden. The second year some of the seeds are hybrids and grow well. The third year the children of those hybrids really shine. I don't know if there is enough genetic diversity within a Brandywine tomato for this sort of selection to be happening and making a difference. The claim is sometimes made that there are epigenetic factors that lead to plants growing better if planted into the same conditions year after year, but they are hard to observe or measure. In my garden, by the third year, the farmer has generally become educated and knows how to take care of the plants better. They do better because they are better taken care of.

April 4, 2015	#4
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	I don't know about tomatoes, but I have grown Black Eyed Peas for 4 years like this. The original peas in 2010 came from a bag I bought at the grocery store. Each year, I saved seeds and planted them the next year. Every year has proven to grow bigger better crops. I'm going to be trying some of them in our new garden #2. The soil isn't exactly the same as in garden #1. There is more clay in Garden #2 and it hasn't been amended for years. We'll see how they do.

April 4, 2015	#5
bower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 6,794	This is certainly interesting, and wouldn't it be nice to have some data to support it? It certainly would lend weight to growing a less-successful variety for the second and third chance, instead of dropping it from the repeat grow list. Science doesn't handle complexity very well. Scientific method asks us to pare down the variables to one alone and keep everything else the same. This simplicity doesn't happen in the real world. Every season has variables that are uncontrolled. I guess the best way to test tihs idea would be to set aside some of the original seed sourced, grow some and save seed for two years, and then grow the original seed and the home saved seed side by side in the third year to compare directly how they perform in the same conditions that happen to prevail in that year. We really don't know much about genetics - we know enough to know how much we don't know. Gene expression, for sure, is influenced by environmental conditions and this could be passed on at the seed level. I don't know of any formal research that has shown otherwise. We also don't know to what extent gene expression produced by an extreme environmental change may affect mutation rate, or direct mutation in one direction or another. Again, I don't know of any research that has demonstrated the contrary ie no effect of gene expression upon subsequent mutations... someone better informed may correct me (and please do, if you know more!).