TFF Fertilizer question in container... Is is too soon?

[squirrel789]

Yeah, I hadn't heard of the eartainers, or many of these methods until I found TV, but it's amazing what people can grow if they try. I find the urban SFG stuff really interesting, and the size and diversity of tomatoes grown in buckets is unreal!

I feel about 1,000% better about my water trough experiments, though admittedly far from ideal, than I did before I started reading through the forum. In my first post I asked if it was possible that the plants would even grow, but now I'm just wondering how big they will get

Again, I appreciate all the encouragement and advice I've been receiving, and hope to hear even more opinions, criticisms or suggestions on my "experiment". I also hope to start contributing what little I do know as well. This forum is addictive...

BTW, this is way off thread topic, but if you like zucchini blossoms, I posted some pics of some I made last year over in that part of the forum. I think the blossoms are the main reason I am going to attempt a zucchini in water trough experiment #2. So I can grab them quickly when they are nice and fresh. I've got to stop talking about those blossoms, this is totally making me hungry!

[wormgirl]

I just saw that pic. YUM.

I had to have a snack to go with my adult beverage. Now I really must go to bed

[squirrel789]

Originally Posted by wormgirl

I just saw that pic. YUM.

I had to have a snack to go with my adult beverage. Now I really must go to bed

Wormgirl,

Goodnight!

People like you are what make this forum great. I've only been here a few days but already feel welcome AND I get great advice. That's a combination that's hard to find on the net these days

Thanks!

[ermentrude]

Originally Posted by squirrel789

Hello,

I planted some indeterminate plants about a week ago, planting them about 14" deep vertically in a large 170 container (Water trough 2'W x 2'D x 6'L with many holes in the bottom). The tops sticking out have been growing, but not much yet with the cool weather, and are now about a foot tall - some a bit less. The thing is, they are already developing flowers near the bottom.

I have a balanced 20-20-20 water soluble I can use and I just got my Texas Tomato Food I ordered. Since the plants are still are so short but are flowering, does anyone have a suggestion as to whether I can start them on the TFF now, or should I give them higher nitrogen fert for more growth first?

The mix is roughly 2 parts good compost, 2 parts peat, 1 part vermiculite, well mixed and topped with large pine chunk mulch. I know there should be some nitrogen from the compost, but I am reading that containers are different and the nutrients drain out quickly with watering.

Thanks for any advice for this first-time container gardener!

I wanted to chime in, I've been using TTF in my Earthboxes since I first planted them out this year. I don't have a large number of plants so I only need a small bottle for the season, it doesn't make sense for me to buy a bunch of different varieties that won't get all used up. 6/8 plants are flowering like mad and 2/8 have tomatoes. I don't think it hurt them in the least.

[squirrel789]

erm,

Awesome, I like hearing how the TFF is working for others. I went ahead and started using it every other watering (diluted as directed), as my container is big and holds a lot of moisture, hence it holds more of the fertilizer too I believe... I could be wrong there.

I appreciate the post, as I am still a bit timid about fertilizer in general. In the past, I've only planted in-ground and with cow manure and straw mulch - no other additives. This container is completely different. That and I'm kind of obsessed with proving this method will work. Not only to me, but to my dad who listened to my trough idea with raised eyebrows - he's done the same in-ground method for years, when he could still garden, and is skeptical to say the least

Thanks for the info!

[wormgirl]

Squirrel, be careful not to water that trough too much. The biggest mistaken you can make with a container plant (and this includes houseplants) is to overwater. What are your temps like right now? Is it drying out? You will have to water a lot more later, but right now it shouldn't need a ton, because 1) the plants are small and 2) the trough is big and 3) you have it mulched.

I have been trying something I've read about - using bamboo skewers to push down deep in my containers and then I can feel if there is any moisture in them or not. If I feel much moisture, I won't water more at that time. At least use your finger, but I suggest you try the skewer or stake because it's very interesting.

[squirrel789]

Hi Wormgirl!

It's been unseasonably cool here for this time of year (upper 70's, low 80's for the high afternoon temp) with several light rains recently. Combined with my excitement about trying the TFF, I am likely over-watering...

I'll back off for awhile, as the "finger test" always feels moist an inch or so below the surface. In a few weeks, I'm sure it will be a different story as we are usually in the mid 90's by now, and the weather can be humid, but also bone-dry during many summers. Or we can also get thunderstorm after thunderstorm... Ah, the good ol' midwest - between floods, drought, snow, ice storms, and 100+ temps, we seem to get the worst of each season

What I wouldn't do for some nice, reasonably constant temps like some of the coastal areas I've visited. Basically, the weather is very unpredictable and I'm pretty sure the local meteorologists usually just throw darts at a list of weather conditions to make their forecasts

Anyway, the plants seem to be growing alright so far and there's no sign yet of leaf curling, yellowing, spots or anything weird. That said, I believe your advice is spot on. I keep reading that you can't water a container too much, but I think mine might be an exception due to the mixture ratios and container volume.

As soon as I started to put the TFF on today (I mixed and applied a 5 gallon bucket diluted according to directions, but also shared a little with 2 smaller container tomatoes and my pepper plants in tank #2), I could hear some water dripping from the holes in the bottom of the tomato bed almost immediately, so it's probably time for a break. I also got my soaker-hose and timer setup finally completed today for both tanks, so of course I had to test it for at least a few minutes, and the same thing happened. So I guess that means the mix is very saturated.

I really appreciate your advice and the concern. I'll probably not water much if at all this week as we are expecting more rain, plus I have a very busy week work-wise.

As always, you've provided excellent advice! My sincerest thanks!

BTW, I have a question that is WAY off topic, and I hope is not out of line. Also, I have some work to do at the moment so I probably can't give this discussion the time it deserves right now, but I can't help but ask about your screen name... Are you into vermiculture? I ask because I recently started a vermiculture box in my basement. It's just the typical DIY rubbermaid container variety, but I am fascinated with it. If you are into this sort of thing I'd like to discuss it in more detail with you sometime if you are willing. Perhaps in another thread. Surely there's a place for that topic somewhere here.

Cheers!

[wormgirl]

Ahhh... you absolutely CAN water a container too much. Short answer, it depends on your mix. What did you use to fill it again? I can't remember.

I heard someone say the other day if you mix has good drainage, it should be practically impossible to overwater, and that is more true. But still, roots need air.

It is also harder to overwater a container with drainage holes in contact with the ground (like my pots, that are set on dirt.) That is because the ground wicks away extra moisture that collects at the bottom, called the "perched water table." Some people install wicks in their pots or do a "pot-in-pot" setup for this reason also.

In your situation it's on your deck, so you don't get the wicking action, so you need to be mindful that the bottom of the trough isn't constantly wet. Thus my advice about sticking a piece of wood down there to check :-)

I need to get my butt to work but, yes when I originally adopted this garden handle almost 15 years ago, I was doing vermiculture with a mini rubbermaid setup. Haven't had a worm bin in years, but I would like to get back to it. Maybe I will soon. You will love it

[coastal bend]

ermentrude, what rate per box do you use. Due to high humidity I only plant 1 plant per box . Really helps on Leaf disease.

[squirrel789]

Originally Posted by wormgirl

Ahhh... you absolutely CAN water a container too much. Short answer, it depends on your mix. What did you use to fill it again? I can't remember.

I heard someone say the other day if you mix has good drainage, it should be practically impossible to overwater, and that is more true. But still, roots need air.

It is also harder to overwater a container with drainage holes in contact with the ground (like my pots, that are set on dirt.) That is because the ground wicks away extra moisture that collects at the bottom, called the "perched water table." Some people install wicks in their pots or do a "pot-in-pot" setup for this reason also.

In your situation it's on your deck, so you don't get the wicking action, so you need to be mindful that the bottom of the trough isn't constantly wet. Thus my advice about sticking a piece of wood down there to check :-)

I need to get my butt to work but, yes when I originally adopted this garden handle almost 15 years ago, I was doing vermiculture with a mini rubbermaid setup. Haven't had a worm bin in years, but I would like to get back to it. Maybe I will soon. You will love it

Good to know!

As for the mix is was roughly 2 parts compost, 2 parts peat moss, and 1 part vermiculite. It has been suggested here on the forum that next year I should use perlite instead of vermiculite and and that the compost may make it more difficult for maximum drainage. Also, although I've since learned it doesn't help with drainage, there's a thin layer of river rock on the very bottom covered by a layer of weed guard to prevent growing medium loss through the holes while watering.

My container is on 5" castors so i can move it for more sun, shade, protection from storms, or whatever depending on the situation. I guess this means that it not wicking and may retain moisture in the bottom, even though I thought the tons of holes I drilled would suffice. Another example of how I learn something new here on TV everyday. Would some holes drilled around the bottom of the sides help, or would that be equally pointless due to lack of wicking?

It's finally warm and sunny here today and my plants look good (I think, but I may be biased). They are certainly growing, although the heirlooms haven't seen the growth the hybrids have, but I was thinking they looked a little wilted. The soil is definitely moist however just below the mulch, using the old "finger test". On closer inspection I think I was just being paranoid about the wilting. As I am using my original "horse trough" thread as a journal of sorts, I posted some more recent pics I just took. Nothing that exciting, it's just like I imagine some people feel about their kids. It's nice to show them off even if they arent really all that much bigger. Also, If anyone sees a potential problem (spots, curling, disease, anything unhealthy, etc), it would be helpful to hear about it. Here's the link:

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...793#post475793

I plan to definitely back off on the watering for awhile, it just makes me sad because I want to try out some more TFF

Thanks to all who who read and post!

[wormgirl]

Squirrel,

Yes, I agree your mix is almost entirely water retentive, with no drainage material. However, don't panic. This would be a disaster for me, but not for you -- with the kind of heat you will get. I have been having a conversation recently with a container tomato grower in NC - last year she used the type of potting mix I use, and she had to water constantly. This year she's using something more water retentive and it's working for her. You will figure these things out in years to come, I promise. One thing you can also consider adding to your mix in the future is some bark fines, often labeled as "soil conditioner." Great for drainage.

Don't bother drilling more holes - the perched water table is not a function of how many holes. Although, you did a good thing making sure there were plenty. I am shocked at how may commercial plant pots do not drain well even with nothing in them. Often the holes are on the side, or not at the true bottom of the pot. It's shocking. So I have begun checking this when I wash out pots and if there isn't good drainage I drill more.

It's also true the gravel doesn't help, it actually just raises the height of the perched water table. But, it was "conventional wisdom" for so long, don't feel bad.

As for being able to fertilize - I understand your excitement - but it is natural at the beginning of a container tomato's life to get less water and fertilizer, and then more as it grows. Think of it this way. If you let them dry out a bit before the next watering, they will really suck it up when you give it to them!!

And hey - the plants are looking good - I can see that they grew!! If they appear wilty when the soil is moist, don't worry. That can happen midday. They should come back in the evening. They can wilt if overwatered, as well, so keep that in mind.

[squirrel789]

Hi!

Yeah, it gets hot and droughts are common here, but I still feel like I want to try the often-touted 5-1-1 mix with pine finings or perhaps a slightly more water-retentive 3-1-1 mix for next year. Also I might add a couple of handfuls of compost for bacterial/microbial addition, but not anything like what I put in there this year. Plus, I guess the TTF probably has most of those needs covered.

Honestly, with the pine mulch, I'm not sure these will ever dry out. Would a wicking system still be viable to install? I wonder... perhaps on the bottom sides of the trough. I am thinking maybe some big holes with an absorbent material inserted into the container and then left to stick out the side down to the patio surface to encourage drainage? Maybe I'm not quite getting the idea, but I imagine it's the same principal as using a paper towel to wick water from one glass into another glass slightly below it, sort of slinky-style... I don't know, just a late-night thought.

As usual, you are probably right. Mine is not an ideal setup, but now I know for the future and I might appreciate the water retention when it doesn't rain for a month and its 95 every day. I just know its bad for the roots to be too wet and would hate for them to rot. Also, thanks for the wilting advice, it kinda freaked me out when I first saw them because I knew the soil was saturated. I wondered if I should shade them a bit, but that didn't seem to make sense either as it wasn't even that hot today (mid 80's).

Enough about my issues, what is happening in your garden. I imagine it is cooler where you are and perhaps rain? What sort of mix do you use in your containers, and what would you use in a huge container like mine? Ever use the Earthtainers everyone here seems to love?

[wormgirl]

I use a version of 5:1:1, it's kind of a quickie version but it works way better for me than any brand of potting soil ever has. In your area, I have heard some people prefer 3:1:1 because you need more moisture retention. The guy who developed 5:1:1 is from a northern climate and thinks of his container plants as "manual hydroponics." I also get the impression he has a LOT of time to water.

The wicking system really needs to be installed before you fill a pot, I think. I'm actually not sure how to do it since I've never done it myself. When I water houseplants I usually let them get fairly dry, then I take them to the sink and give them a really good soaking. Then, I pick them up and tilt them... and they drain more. This is the perched water table. If I then set them on a towel, this mimics the effect of the pot sitting on ground. It wicks a bunch of excess water out of the pot. Problem is, there's no easy way to do that with your big ole trough! But perhaps this will give you ideas for next year. For this year, well, you will just have to accept they won't be perfect...

My garden is going well - I got my last three plants out yesterday. (LAST! REALLY!) It's kind of silly since they are such long season plants (Big Rainbow, Mortgage Lifter, Kellogg's Breakfast) and if I am lucky I will have a few tomatoes in September from these plants. Ah well, live and learn. They were all impulse purchases. Next year I will get an earlier start on my long season tomatoes!

We have been having the typical northwest overcast weather the last few days, slight drizzle but no real rain. Tomorrow through Saturday, we are supposed to be in the upper 70s, and have some sun, woo! And our nights are warming up too; I just read yesterday tomatoes need 2 consecutive nights of 55 or higher to set fruit, and that's just about what we're getting to now. I was inspecting earlier and see that my Cherokee Purple is just starting to grow some tiny new fruits besides the early one it threw.