Variations in Cherokee Purple and Indian Stripe

[seaeagle]

I was looking at some pictures of Cherokee Purple, since its been raining all day again and it is really amazing how different the same tomato looks in different places.For instance, on Tatiana's site Klaus-Peter Schurz Cherokee Purple looks identical to what mine looks like in the first pic.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...b=General_Info

So then I did a image search and the color of these tomatoes are all over the place, look at a hundred or so pics

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cherokee+p...ffhp&ia=images

I then went to Tatiana's site to search Indian Stripe just to see if Klaus-Peter Schurz Indian Stripe looked different than the other Indian Stripes.And what I saw was maybe the most beautiful tomato I have ever seen.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Indian_Stripe

The striping on the Indian Stripe is just beautiful.Just when I thought I had everything figured out I looked down a few more pics and Ted Maiden's Indian Stripe looks just like my Cherokee Purple In summary I guess its the soil that makes these Cherokees look different.Some of mine even look like green when ripe with a pink blush.This is more of an observation than anything on a Very rainy Saturday.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

I was looking at some pictures of Cherokee Purple, since its been raining all day again and it is really amazing how different the same tomato looks in different places.For instance, on Tatiana's site Klaus-Peter Schurz Cherokee Purple looks identical to what mine looks like in the first pic.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...b=General_Info

So then I did a image search and the color of these tomatoes are all over the place, look at a hundred or so pics

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cherokee+p...ffhp&ia=images

I then went to Tatiana's site to search Indian Stripe just to see if Klaus-Peter Schurz Indian Stripe looked different than the other Indian Stripes.And what I saw was maybe the most beautiful tomato's I have ever seen.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Indian_Stripe

The striping on the Indian Stripe is just beautiful.Just when I thought I had everything figured out I looked down a few more pics and Ted Maiden's Indian Stripe looks just like my Cherokee Purple In summary I guess its the soil that makes these Cherokees look different.Some of mine even look like green when ripe with a pink blush.This is more of an observation than anything on a Very rainy Saturday.

I think what you are seeing is what was discussed here recently in another thread where someone said she saw both red and pink versions of Kosovo.

I answered her, as did others, and I put up a Google IMAGES picture of Kosovo and there were both red and pink versions.

What I think you are seeing is a variation in photography rather than with soil conditions, etc.

If you read about Indian Stripe at Tania's page you saw only faint striping at the stem end when the fruits were not yet ripe but when ripe they are light pink.

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Indian_Stripe

And here's a Google Images page showing IS immature fruits with striping at the stem end as well/

https://www.google.com/search?q=indi...g&ved=0CCgQ7Ak

And I know IS very well since you saw at Tania's page that I was the first person to receive the seeds.

I grew Cherokee Purple the first year after J D Green sent the seeds to craig LeHoullier ( nctomatoman), craigs seeds to me so I know that one very well too. Here's Google Images for that one and you see the same striping at the stem end with immature fruits and then they ripen up what I call pink black, with a clear epidermis. IS also has a clear epidermis as well/

The first person I sent IS seeds to was craig and he agreed that both CP and IS looked similar exept IS fruits were a lighter color and more to the truss.

https://www.google.com/search?q=cher...&ved=0CIUBEIke

Both IS and CP have stable PL variants and both appear to have blunt heart shaped fruits as well.

Hope that helps, and again photography is the main issue, different film and cameras used, different lighting situations, etc, which I hope I have confirmed for you with the above pictures, just as I did for the person who had read about pink and red Kosovo fruits.

Carolyn

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I think what you are seeing is what was discussed here recently in another thread where someone said she saw both red and pink versions of Kosovo.

I answered her, as did others, and I put up a Google IMAGES picture of Kosovo and there were both red and pink versions.

What I think you are seeing is a variation in photography rather than with soil conditions, etc.

If you read about Indian Stripe at Tania's page you saw only faint striping at the stem end when the fruits were not yet ripe but when ripe they are light pink.

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Indian_Stripe

And here's a Google Images page showing IS immature fruits with striping at the stem end as well/

https://www.google.com/search?q=indi...g&ved=0CCgQ7Ak

And I know IS very well since you saw at Tania's page that I was the first person to receive the seeds.

I grew Cherokee Purple the first year after J D Green sent the seeds to craig LeHoullier ( nctomatoman), craigs seeds to me so I know that one very well too. Here's Google Images for that one and you see the same striping at the stem end with immature fruits and then they ripen up what I call pink black, with a clear epidermis. IS also has a clear epidermis as well/

The first person I sent IS seeds to was craig and he agreed that both CP and IS looked similar exept IS fruits were a lighter color and more to the truss.

https://www.google.com/search?q=cher...&ved=0CIUBEIke

Both IS and CP have stable PL variants and both appear to have blunt heart shaped fruits as well.

Hope that helps, and again photography is the main issue, different film and cameras used, different lighting situations, etc, which I hope I have confirmed for you with the above pictures, just as I did for the person who had read about pink and red Kosovo fruits.

Carolyn

Yes I will agree that photography is the main issue but my Cherokee Purple is Pink with green shoulders exactly like the pic of Klaus-Peter Schurz CP in the following link.That pic could have been taken in my garden it is so identical.Nothing like what I have seen Cherokee Purple described as, such as deep mahogany, brick red, purple and so on.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...b=General_Info

[Gardeneer]

Mine looked like this last year. Some were more smooth .

Note: The actual color was darker than seen in this picture.

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Mine looked like this last year. Some were more smooth .

Note: The actual color was darker than seen in this picture.

That is a beautiful tomato Gardeneer.Some of mine get ruffled like that too, not sure mine are that big though.Been reading the descriptions on Tatiana's page, I see it described as

pink-purple with green shoulders

dark pink with purplish shoulders,

dark purple beefsteak

deep red with a purple cast,

Pink-purple oblate fruit with green shoulders

Medium to large rose/purple colored.

purplish pink dusky fruit

I don't think anyone agrees to what color it is lol

Everyone has purple in the description, that is the one color I don't see, I think I would describe mine as rose colored with green shoulders

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

That is a beautiful tomato Gardeneer.Some of mine get ruffled like that too, not sure mine are that big though.Been reading the descriptions on Tatiana's page, I see it described as

pink-purple with green shoulders

dark pink with purplish shoulders,

dark purple beefsteak

deep red with a purple cast,

Pink-purple oblate fruit with green shoulders

Medium to large rose/purple colored.

purplish pink dusky fruit

I don't think anyone agrees to what color it is lol

Everyone has purple in the description, that is the one color I don't see, I think I would describe mine as rose colored with green shoulders

You won't see any Purple since Craig first SSE listed it as brick colored, then assuming it was an 100 yo heirloom as he'd been told by John Green renamed it Cherokee Purple since the word purple meant pink 100 years ago. But recent analysis of gf allels has show it is not 100 yo/Please see the thread here about Acme in the legacy Forum for more about the word purple.

Klaus- Peter showed two pictures at Tania's website, the upper one is not mature even though it says ripe, a typo error. Right below that one is a picture of a pink one in a bowl that is ripe and both pictures were taken in july of 2011.

And yes, you see diffeent descriptions of color with some of those pictures as well as the individuals who described them since not all of us see colors the same due to diifferent proportions of rods and cones in the retina of individuals. Fusion is one who admits he can't tell the difference between an orange and a gold fruit.

Lastly, I've been growing CP since about 1993 in my zone 5 area and have never seen a ruffled one, so I have no idea what that's due to,

Carolyn

[b54red]

Another difference that is common down here is the fruit in the spring and early summer of both IS and CP along with many other of the black tomatoes is much lighter than the fruit that comes off the plant in late summer and fall when there is generally much less rain and it is very hot. Some of the fruit at that time of the year are almost black at times with a very deep mahogany tone. Sometimes the green shoulders are almost non existent and other times they stand out very strongly. I too have never seen one that is ruffled.

Bill

[amideutch]

Then there is Spudakee Purple which is the PL version of Cherokee Purple.

Ami

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...light=Spudakee

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by b54red

Another difference that is common down here is the fruit in the spring and early summer of both IS and CP along with many other of the black tomatoes is much lighter than the fruit that comes off the plant in late summer and fall when there is generally much less rain and it is very hot. Some of the fruit at that time of the year are almost black at times with a very deep mahogany tone. Sometimes the green shoulders are almost non existent and other times they stand out very strongly. I too have never seen one that is ruffled.

Bill

That might explain a lot as to why everyone sees Cherokee Purple differently.Thank you for that explanation B54.I think the ruffled ones come from fused blooms.I have one out there now although not as perfectly ruffled as his, I can see it happening.I have gotten ruffled ones off Jet Star and Big Beef too, but that may be a different situation

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by amideutch

Then there is Spudakee Purple which is the PL version of Cherokee Purple.

Ami

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...light=Spudakee

You grow some beautiful tomatoes amideutch.The striping is really evident in your tomatoes.Are you and Klaus-Peter Schurz the same person or maybe its the German soil.Thanks for the link

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

You grow some beautiful tomatoes amideutch.The striping is really evident in your tomatoes.Are you and Klaus-Peter Schurz the same person or maybe its the German soil.Thanks for the link

No, Ami, aka Ted, is not Klaus-Peter, you can trust me on that 100%.Hope you don't mind Ted, and since others here also know what I'm going to say, Ted went to Germany and worked for the US military there who then met and married a German lady and his original origin is the US. And he grows Wonderful tomatoes as well.

There is another PL version of CP as well

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com/wiki...e,_Potato_Leaf

And at the bottom Tania suggests that the Spudakee one and the Gettle one above and CP itself be grown at the same time ( in the same season, I add) so a direct comparisons can be made.

That has been done by several persons with no clear answer since some say that one or the other of the PL ones are different from CP itself ( excluding of course leaf form) some say one or the other differ, some say all three are the same except for leaf form, etc.

It's asking the same question that has been asked before and that is are KB and KBX the same except for leaf form, same for BKX, the PL version of Black Krim.

I guess the question to be asked is if there is a spontaneous mutation that alters RL to PL and such single spontaneous mutations are permanent and heritable. But the change from RL to PL could also be the result of many other kinds of DNA mutations which affect more genes at the same time, those would include Looping out, deletions, inversions, repeats, etc.

So it makes sense to me at least that not all PL versions of CP are the same, for they could differ with different traits one from the other as well as from CP, and that's why those who have done those direct comparisons can and do get different results.

Carolyn