why are late varieties late, fruit set or development?

venturabananas · July 25, 2015

One way tomatoes tend to be listed is by when they ripen: early, mid, or late season. Late varieties could ripen later because the plants set fruit later or the fruit take longer to ripen (or both).

I notice in my yard, many of varieties listed as late tend not to set well (or at all) early in the season, whereas the early and mid-season varieties generally do set well then.

In your experience, is it generally the case that late season varieties set poorly early in the season? Or is this related to my cool, coastal climate, where we don't get warm nighttime temperatures (high 60's and 70's) until mid-summer?

Here are some examples of varieties that set early (first flowers) versus late:

Early setters:
Malachite Box
Juane Flamme
Stupice
Indian Stripe
Azoycha

Late setters:
Kellogg's Breakfast
Brandywine Sudduth
Aunt Ruby's German Green

**carolyn137** · July 25, 2015

I can't speak to your situation in CA but I can share with you that tomato varieties usually are listed as early, mid season and late season and it relects the specific genes they have and also reflects the DTM (days to maturity from setting out plants.

Here's one example from GlennDrowns at Sandhill Preservation.

Very early; 55 days or less

Early:55 to 70 days

Midseason: 70-85 days

Late Season; usually over 85 days.

I had something very close to that in my heirloom tomato book.

But also know that depending on weather and other variables there were times when my midseason ones ripened up before the earlies, the late season ones ripened up before the midseason ones, etc.

Summary? It's all guesstimates just as are the DTM's you see listed in various seed catalogs and at seed vendor sites.

Carolyn

venturabananas · July 25, 2015

Thanks for the input. So to rephrase, are those genes that affect time to maturity (which is a guestimate) genes that affect when the plants set fruit, or how long it takes a set fruit to ripen?

Put another way, does a "very early" variety produce ripe fruit 55 days after planting out whereas as "late season" variety produces ripe fruit after 85 days because the very early variety set fruits as soon as it was planted out, whereas the late variety produced fruits 30 days later because it didn't set fruit for a month after being planted out? Or did the both set at the same time and the late season variety took a month longer to ripen those set fruit?

Gardeneer · July 25, 2015

I have played around the issue and have made my observations.

I think, in general, there are few reasons (genetics or otherwise) for DTM variance.

ONE: some varieties start blooming and setting early (genetics), even in cold early season. Obviously they are going to be ahead in ripening.

TWO: Fruit size is also an important factor. Take a small saladett and a huge beefsteak that both flower and set at the same time. The first will definitely beat the latter. It is no wonder that most of so-called EARY varieties are small fruited : STUPICE, BLOODY BUTCHER, KIMBERLY, MATINA, EARLY TREAT, FOURTH OF JULY ... ON AND ON.

THREE: I can think of another genetic factor : Some varieties just grow at much faster rate. I am making an observation this year: Black From Tula is growing faster than say Mr. stripy.

FOUR : Climate is yet another influence. Some do better in heat, some like cool. So give them the right or wrong climate they will perform differently.

Just my $0.02

Gardeneer

ContainerTed · July 25, 2015

Basic wisdom says anything that affects plant growth and nutrition will affect fruit growth and ripening. If you have full sun all day long, your tomatoes will be a little faster than the ones in the shaded areas. If your soil is well fertilized and has a great balance of the micro-nutrients, growth may be a bit faster than for soil with a lot of clay and sand.

My tomato growing philosophy is simple. Give them the best environment that satisfies the most of their needs. I am truly blessed to have some of the most fertile garden soil anywhere. I am currently learning how to put back the nutrients that my crops take away. So far, so good.

zipcode · July 25, 2015

In my experience proper early fruit set makes the biggest difference. From fruit set to blush for most big tomatoes I noticed to be very close. Interesting to note that after blush some varieties take a lot longer to actually get ripe, mostly those that will also keep well.
Of course, some will flower earlier, but every time I see a clearly late ripener it's because it lost the first flowers.
Which is why if you plant somewhat later than normal, differences between varieties are not big. The better conditions allow the fussy ones to set fruit properly as well. This year, Aunt Gertie is as fast as Azoychka, because we had a good period at flowering time.
In other words, I agree with your observations.

**carolyn137** · July 25, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by venturabananas

Thanks for the input. So to rephrase, are those genes that affect time to maturity (which is a guestimate) genes that affect when the plants set fruit, or how long it takes a set fruit to ripen?

Put another way, does a "very early" variety produce ripe fruit 55 days after planting out whereas as "late season" variety produces ripe fruit after 85 days because the very early variety set fruits as soon as it was planted out, whereas the late variety produced fruits 30 days later because it didn't set fruit for a month after being planted out? Or did the both set at the same time and the late season variety took a month longer to ripen those set fruit?

THE PRIMARY determinate as to when a specific variety first has blossoms, sets fruit and matures fruit is regulated by many genes in the DNA of a specific variety. Those genes code for enymes that then lead to a cascade effect that affects the timing. I did a quick search to find a wonderful site that explains all of that but not finding it ASAP I gave up for now.

Early and late varieties do not set fruit at the same time such that it takes longer for late season varieties to mature fruit.

There was another link I wanted to find and finally did so in an unadulterated form that someone had fetched off the wayback machine. This Timeline sequence with Big Beef should help. Paul Ganz did this and when Garden Web was Garden Web I had volunteered to coordinate a number of new FAQ's being written, and it was Paul who uploaded all the pictures to those.

However, now that Houzz has bought out GW when I try to transfer links from FAQ's there they are missing some pictures and data,

Here's the timeline link:

http://web.archive.org/web/201012180...Truss_Timeline

Hope the above helps,

Carolyn

joseph · July 25, 2015

In my garden, it takes anywhere from 6 weeks to 9 weeks for tomato fruits to ripen after flowering. Additionally, in my garden, there can be as much as a 6 week difference in flowering times between varieties. So in the worst case scenario, with delayed ripening fruits and delayed flowering, some varieties ripen fruit up to 9 weeks later than other varieties. That's 63 days difference between early tomatoes and later tomatoes. My frost free season is only about 100 days, which goes a long ways towards explaining why I don't grow brandywines or beefsteaks.

venturabananas · July 26, 2015

Thanks to everyone for their feedback. Sounds like I'm not the only one who has found that, in their climate/growing conditions, the genes that affect fruit set probably play a bigger role in why late varieties ripen fruit late than do the genes that determine ripening time once fruit are set. And gene x environment interactions explain why not everyone finds the same thing.

So, my search is for medium to large-fruited, especially tasty varieties that reliably set fruit early in my climate. So far, Azoychka, Malachite Box (Malakhitovaya Shkatulka), and Indian Stripe fit that bill.

venturabananas · July 26, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

My tomato growing philosophy is simple. Give them the best environment that satisfies the most of their needs.

Yep, absolutely. But the (outdoor) growing environment one can provide is constrained by the climate they live in. I'm slowly working out which varieties do best and taste best to me in the best growing environment I can provide, in which cool nights are the norm.

July 25, 2015	#1
venturabananas Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ventura, CA Posts: 142	why are late varieties late, fruit set or development? One way tomatoes tend to be listed is by when they ripen: early, mid, or late season. Late varieties could ripen later because the plants set fruit later or the fruit take longer to ripen (or both). I notice in my yard, many of varieties listed as late tend not to set well (or at all) early in the season, whereas the early and mid-season varieties generally do set well then. In your experience, is it generally the case that late season varieties set poorly early in the season? Or is this related to my cool, coastal climate, where we don't get warm nighttime temperatures (high 60's and 70's) until mid-summer? Here are some examples of varieties that set early (first flowers) versus late: Early setters: Malachite Box Juane Flamme Stupice Indian Stripe Azoycha Late setters: Kellogg's Breakfast Brandywine Sudduth Aunt Ruby's German Green

July 25, 2015	#2
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	I can't speak to your situation in CA but I can share with you that tomato varieties usually are listed as early, mid season and late season and it relects the specific genes they have and also reflects the DTM (days to maturity from setting out plants. Here's one example from GlennDrowns at Sandhill Preservation. Very early; 55 days or less Early:55 to 70 days Midseason: 70-85 days Late Season; usually over 85 days. I had something very close to that in my heirloom tomato book. But also know that depending on weather and other variables there were times when my midseason ones ripened up before the earlies, the late season ones ripened up before the midseason ones, etc. Summary? It's all guesstimates just as are the DTM's you see listed in various seed catalogs and at seed vendor sites. Carolyn __________________ Carolyn

July 25, 2015	#5
ContainerTed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: 6a - NE Tennessee Posts: 4,538	Basic wisdom says anything that affects plant growth and nutrition will affect fruit growth and ripening. If you have full sun all day long, your tomatoes will be a little faster than the ones in the shaded areas. If your soil is well fertilized and has a great balance of the micro-nutrients, growth may be a bit faster than for soil with a lot of clay and sand. My tomato growing philosophy is simple. Give them the best environment that satisfies the most of their needs. I am truly blessed to have some of the most fertile garden soil anywhere. I am currently learning how to put back the nutrients that my crops take away. So far, so good. __________________ Ted ________________________ Owner & Sole Operator Of The Muddy Bucket Farm and Tomato Ranch

July 25, 2015	#4
Gardeneer Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7 Posts: 4,916	I have played around the issue and have made my observations. I think, in general, there are few reasons (genetics or otherwise) for DTM variance. ONE: some varieties start blooming and setting early (genetics), even in cold early season. Obviously they are going to be ahead in ripening. TWO: Fruit size is also an important factor. Take a small saladett and a huge beefsteak that both flower and set at the same time. The first will definitely beat the latter. It is no wonder that most of so-called EARY varieties are small fruited : STUPICE, BLOODY BUTCHER, KIMBERLY, MATINA, EARLY TREAT, FOURTH OF JULY ... ON AND ON. THREE: I can think of another genetic factor : Some varieties just grow at much faster rate. I am making an observation this year: Black From Tula is growing faster than say Mr. stripy. FOUR : Climate is yet another influence. Some do better in heat, some like cool. So give them the right or wrong climate they will perform differently. Just my $0.02 Gardeneer

July 25, 2015	#6
zipcode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Romania/Germany , z 4-6 Posts: 1,582	In my experience proper early fruit set makes the biggest difference. From fruit set to blush for most big tomatoes I noticed to be very close. Interesting to note that after blush some varieties take a lot longer to actually get ripe, mostly those that will also keep well. Of course, some will flower earlier, but every time I see a clearly late ripener it's because it lost the first flowers. Which is why if you plant somewhat later than normal, differences between varieties are not big. The better conditions allow the fussy ones to set fruit properly as well. This year, Aunt Gertie is as fast as Azoychka, because we had a good period at flowering time. In other words, I agree with your observations.

July 25, 2015	#8
joseph Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: Cache Valley, N/E of The Great Salt Lake Posts: 1,244	In my garden, it takes anywhere from 6 weeks to 9 weeks for tomato fruits to ripen after flowering. Additionally, in my garden, there can be as much as a 6 week difference in flowering times between varieties. So in the worst case scenario, with delayed ripening fruits and delayed flowering, some varieties ripen fruit up to 9 weeks later than other varieties. That's 63 days difference between early tomatoes and later tomatoes. My frost free season is only about 100 days, which goes a long ways towards explaining why I don't grow brandywines or beefsteaks.

July 26, 2015	#9
venturabananas Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ventura, CA Posts: 142	Thanks to everyone for their feedback. Sounds like I'm not the only one who has found that, in their climate/growing conditions, the genes that affect fruit set probably play a bigger role in why late varieties ripen fruit late than do the genes that determine ripening time once fruit are set. And gene x environment interactions explain why not everyone finds the same thing. So, my search is for medium to large-fruited, especially tasty varieties that reliably set fruit early in my climate. So far, Azoychka, Malachite Box (Malakhitovaya Shkatulka), and Indian Stripe fit that bill.