Zap Cross

[AlittleSalt]

In 2015, I started a thread here about Zapotec tomatoes http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...hlight=Zapotec
I tentatively named them Zap Cross. That was in 2015.

I'm growing F4 this spring/summer. The tomatoes still look the same, same size, still produces both shaped fruits. I have not got a ripe one yet to compare taste, but the F2 and F3 tasted the same as the F1s did.

As I wrote in the thread above, I did not make the cross. I got the seeds from the 2014 MMMM swap. I'm still thinking Zapotec is one of the parents x ??? Being that there hasn't been any change from F1 through F4 - how many more generations do I need to grow them out before I can say they are a stable OP variety? They taste so good and it's fun seeing two different shaped fruits growing on the same plant.

I am not thinking of selling them or anything like that. After all, I'm not the one who made the cross - I'm just growing them out.

[Nan_PA_6b]

Well, in general I think it takes till about F7 or F8. Have you tried to stabilize to one shape of fruit?

Maybe someone got the plant in a pack of Zapotek seeds & assumed it was a cross when it was actually a stray seed of some other stable variety. There are a few that yield two shapes of fruit.

I don't know what to tell you, Salt. But others may not believe it's stable before about F7.

Nan

[AlittleSalt]

Nan, I was thinking it could be something like that too. I just haven't found a match yet.

The F2 I saved seeds separately. I labeled them Zap Cross Round and the others Zap Cross Zapotec looking. Both grew out plants with both fruit shapes.

[Nan_PA_6b]

They actually look more shapely to me than Zapotec. One could describe the two types as round and beefsteak. I know there is at least one variety that has beefsteaks plus (I think round). Carolyn would know it. It doesn't matter which you save seed from, you get both types.

Carolyn, can you help us out here?

Nan

[Gardeneer]

I love pleated/ribbed tomatoes and Zapotec is famous for that. Its quite a departure from a round smooth shape that there are so many of them around.

[pmcgrady]

I have grown a lot of pleated tomatoes (Zapotec, Beauty Lottringa, Mushroom Basket, Gazenhte, Costoluto Genovese, Goldmans Italian American etc.). I think your tomatoes look more like Costoluto than Zapotec.

[Worth1]

I don't see zap genes in those tomatoes but that is just my worthless opinion.
Worth

[bower]

Salt, we were talking about the locule number genes in the Karma project thread not long ago, and I found and posted a couple of links you can find there.
The upshot iirc, LC "locule number" is a dominant gene and would account for the four locule fruit in your pictures, it is typical of some medium sized fruit.
The second locule gene is "fas" "fasciated" and it is not a dominant gene but possibly it is 'penetrant' and expresses partially in the unstable heterozygous condition (fas/- instead of fas/fas). It increases the locule number by many, resulting in big pleated fruit like Zapotec, but always in combination with LC as well. It's as though LC has to be present before fas can be expressed I think, but I'm not entirely sure about that.
So LC alone would account for the 4 locule fruit, but LC and fas together would make the big ones... and it seems like the incomplete expression of that combo, maybe the plants you're growing have LC/LC (stable) but only fas/- (still unstable).
You would need to grow a half dozen at least, in one generation to look for the fas/fas or -/- combination and find out if the two shapes can be separated..

That would be the simple (or simplistic) version or explanation, because there is a lot of complexity, additive traits (qtl's) and etcetera which affect the ultimate shape/size of tomatoes. So you might grow out more plants and still find that it is not so easily explained.

[AlittleSalt]

The fluted/pleated looking ones do look more like Costoluto Genovese tomatoes, but both fruit shapes are only around the size of a golf ball. 2 oz. is as big as they get. The round ones catch up in size eventually and have a wavy/fluted/curvy look to the stem side instead of the bottom.

The only reason why I think they may be a Zapotec cross is because the seeds came in a plastic pack labeled Zapotec. Otherwise, I have grown many tomatoes that are much larger that look like the fluted/pleated ones.

Bower, thank you for the explanation. I do appreciate what you wrote.

When I became a Tomatoville member in 2014, I had been growing tomato plants that were 8' tall with a whole lot of production. I was really interested in learning more about them - including genetics which I have no clue about.

Then RKN spread and am lucky to get tomato plants 4-5' tall. Over the past 3 years, I have lost interest in learning genetics - I just want tomatoes to survive long enough to produce and taste good. That's why you never see me post in that section of Tomatoville.

Worth, I appreciate your opinion. It is not worthless.