Forum area for discussing hybridizing tomatoes in technical terms and information pertinent to trait/variety specific long-term (1+ years) growout projects.
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January 12, 2018 | #31 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Detroit
Posts: 688
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I appreciate everyone's comments in this thread. It is nice to get a 'Noob Breeding 101' course here at Tomatoville!
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January 12, 2018 | #32 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Sunol, CA
Posts: 2,723
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Another person also mentioned Garnet, and they seem to look similar. We will definitely be growing Garnet this year!
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January 13, 2018 | #33 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2,250
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January 13, 2018 | #34 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: European Union/Czech Republic
Posts: 8
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Another easy-to-understand book about plant breeding (in general, no tomatoes) is HAYES, Herbert Kendall a Forrest Rhinehart IMMER. Methods of plant breeding. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1942. McGraw-Hill publications in the agricultural science. I know, it is veeeeeery old, but it includes basic principles you need for basic breeding (combinatory breeding) explained in clear way. |
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January 13, 2018 | #35 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Sunol, CA
Posts: 2,723
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I agree. Introgressing 1 or 2 genes into a line clearly is one example.
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January 13, 2018 | #36 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Tomato Cornhole
Posts: 2,550
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This thread is right on time!!
Last year I crossed a Compari X George Detsikas. I have a plant growing now in a friends greenhouse and just picked a lower fruit off the plant because it looks terrible and is the smallest, the others aren't blushing yet and I'll get better fruit later to keep seeds. It has the ribbing from GD and is growing tall like the Compari. This isn't ripe yet but you can see the shape. The other ripe tomato is a cross from Compari X Rebell Yell F-1 fruit. My question is, will I be able to get plants that are bigger than Compari with the ribbing and cherry type growth? . |
January 16, 2018 | #37 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Honey Brook, PA Zone 6b
Posts: 399
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Do you mean 'fruits that are bigger that Compari' and what are you specifying re: 'cherry type growth'. 1) Generally (there are definite exceptions) you won't be able to get fruit larger than the largest parent. 2) Ribbing should be fairly easy to retain. Ironically, in the history of tomato breeding ribbing was something bred away frum. 3) Getting size back in a cross (I believe) is one of the harder things to do, as there are many genes that have minor affects on size. You might want to consider a backcross to get size (this is just an opinion). |
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January 16, 2018 | #38 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Tomato Cornhole
Posts: 2,550
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Yes, I meant tomatoes bigger than Compari and still maintain the growth habit of a cherry plant. I guess it really doesn't matter as long as it clusters with 7-10 tomatoes and the clusters are close to each other on the plant.
How would I go about selecting for this without having to grow many plants out? |
January 17, 2018 | #39 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,794
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If you're looking for medium size, I think you could expect to find it with half a dozen F2s. As for the ruffles, I don't know exactly how those genetics work, but it is at least connected to the fas gene I think. I mean, I think it needs the fas (fasciated) trait to be expressed. I would love to see your results, how many ruffled in the F2, and how much that varies. I've been pondering the genetics of "ugly" fruit, thinking of several ruffly ones that also had many shape defects. No idea how many I would have to grow out to find some PERFECTLY formed ruffled fruit. Lastly, the cluster size - watch for interesting changes in cluster size. There were several threads or posts and some items in the news about this last year if you read through you will find them. There is epistasis at work in many tomato lines, which reduces the size of cluster. So you can get unexpectedly large clusters from a cross where this little epistatic effect is undone. This happened to me, and ended up with an F3 cluster size = 38 blooms from largest parent cluster size = 12-16 double branched. Be careful what you wish for. Note that the epistatic effect iirc was considered desirable in breeding, to reduce cluster size and get larger and/or more uniform size of individual fruit. There may be limits in the combo of fruit size/cluster size. All of the above comment is just, as I remember it this morning, without looking up any refs. So may stand to be corrected. |
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January 17, 2018 | #40 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Honey Brook, PA Zone 6b
Posts: 399
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First I believe there is a correlation between tomato fruit size and the number of fruits per fluorescence. I think there's variation within the range, but generally the larger the fruit, the less tomatoes per fluorescence (but prove me wrong!!) Also how many plants can you reasonably grow? That will determine some of your approach. You will ideally need to know at least some of the genes you are looking for, and that will help determine what your chances are for finding that gene in a certain number of plants. One thing (but this makes the process much longer) is to grow only a few plants each year until you see the gene/gene combination you want. I tried looking up 'George Detsikas' and 'Compari'. I couldn't find a description of 'Compari' . Is it a hybrid? If so, your F1/F2 generations may have more variation than would otherwise be expected. <clusters are close to each other on the plant. > Well the main thing that determines that is whether the plant is indeterminate or determinate. Determinate clusters are slightly closer (about 1 1/2 leaves per cluster), but most tomatoes of that kind are thought to have less flavor). Indeterminate plants have about 2 1/2 leaves between clusters and can bear all season. 'George Detsiskas' is indeterminate and I'm guessing 'Compari' is likely too as most cherry tomatoes are. |
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January 17, 2018 | #41 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Honey Brook, PA Zone 6b
Posts: 399
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You may want to take a look at this old post I put up in 2015, about calculating probabilities and percent chance and there was short-lived, but pretty good followup commentary:
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=38505 |
January 18, 2018 | #42 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Tomato Cornhole
Posts: 2,550
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Thanks to both of you for that info. I'll start as many as I can and see where that takes me. I can probably grow at least 20 plants for Spring, another 20 in Fall and I might be able to squeeze in another 10 plants next winter in the greenhouse.
I'm sure I'll have more questions and I'll be back to bug everyone for answers. |
January 18, 2018 | #43 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: NJ
Posts: 123
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Campari (not Compari) is a supermarket tomato.
Here's a video featuring Campari plants with, to my eyes, some variance in fruit size: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1svItl-AcjQ. |
January 18, 2018 | #44 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Tomato Cornhole
Posts: 2,550
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I grew them last year in the greenhouse and they were as good as the originals I took the seed from. It might be Cam or Com but they taste good and produce nice eating tomatoes, especially in winter. Here's my little GH last year.
https://youtu.be/SuPLVq9U2Iw?t=297 |
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