Bad Advice on the Internet

[Mischka]

While the Internet can be a great resource to learn from, it also gives opportunity for some people to post very inaccurate advice that, unfortunately, is followed by other people with very bad results.

Here are two prime examples:



Soaking seeds in Ajax, Comet or any other scrubbing cleanser is bad advice. Why? In addition to powdered chlorine (any pool owner out there knows how caustic this is) there are other chemicals in them that will very likely damage the seed coat that Mother Nature uses to protect the precious embryo within. Kiss your germination success goodbye.

Commerical seed companies don't use Ajax or Comet to clean seeds for resale and neither should you. Period. Seeds saved for long term storage by SSE and the USDA aren't soaked in Ajax or Comet, either.

Dr. Randy Gardner insists all seed saved for storage from his breeding projects are to be fermented. Dr. Carolyn Male is also an staunch advocate of fermentation vs. chemical seed treatment for seeds to be stored for future use.

Bottom line: Save the Ajax and Comet for your toilets, sinks and showers.

Here's another post I came across from someone that advocates saving (and sharing ) seed from F1 hybrid plants:




I'm going to point out the flaws in this persons' logic.

#1. The vast majority of F1 hybrid seed is NOT stable, meaning that the genetic traits from the parents within them will segregate out if you save seed from the F1 plants. Without going into a boring drawn-out explanation, F1 hybrids contain genetic material contributed from two or more parental lines. You can read more about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_hybrid

#2. Commercial breeders guard the identity (and often the seeds) of the parents of their hybrids, much like Coca-Cola guards it's secret formula. Try getting your hands on seeds for Teddy Jones! (one of the parents of Big Boy) No way in hell has the poster above seen what the parents of commercial F1 hybrids look like.

#3. Sharing seeds from fruits saved from F1 hybrid plants is a not a good idea at all. The person planting them will almost always end up with something other than what the original F1 seeds produced. (Hint: This would be a good time to check out the Cross Hemisphere Dwarf Project forum to learn about segregation! )

Many of us here have intentionally saved seed from F1 plants in hopes to segregate out desirable genetic traits contributed from the parents. It takes many growing seasons and a lot of growing space to do this and there is no guarantee of success.

There ARE suspect F1 hybrids that are likely stabilized crosses (Brandy Boy comes to mind) but the vast majority are not. Bottom line: Don't share seeds saved from F1 hybrids unless you make it clear to the person you shared them with. There are some pretty crummy tasting OP varieties that are used for breeding hybrids and it would be very disappointing for someone to spend their time all season to grow plants, only to have them produce tomatoes that are less than edible.

[Tomstrees]

Yeah - I've heard adding a pindrop of bleach can assist in the killing
off of pathogens on seed coats. It sounds like a good idea, but I haven't tried it.

I stick to my old method of squeezing a tomato into a cup of water - letting it ferment for 5-9 days - washing the seeds off - and let dry for a week or so on paper towels. I've been doing it this was for a number of years, and I always have good germination rates, and so do the people I trade my saved seeds with.

Lots and lots of "stuff" out there ... As I've said before - read all of it; take it for what its worth and apply what "you" think would work.
I've found trial and error is the best teacher (well, for me).

As far as F1 seeds are concerned, I've gotten everything you can think of in trade: from store bought saved tomato seeds, to store bought saved pepper seeds, to store bought saved cucumber seeds.

For the most part folks let you know what you're getting, and you chose to do what you want with it.

Me ? I love working with F1's and F2's ... I have the space to grow a decent amount of plants out, and as Carolyn has said before "you may get lucky" and get something good.

But yeah, you def. don't want to waste a persons time or space by sending something you clearly know will not come true.

~ Tom

[Thomas]

Mischka, I see that you pointed out specifically powdered chlorine... there is a thread here on T-ville that tells about TSP and Oxyclean..I for one have read this thread and know that several T-villians are excited about this "quick" way to save seeds.. TSP and Oxyclean do not have powdered chlorine in them(not 100% sure)..can you clarify if you think the method is OK or not. I have actually heard good reports from some that have been using these chemicals.

[Mischka]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Mischka, I see that you pointed out specifically powdered chlorine... there is a thread here on T-ville that tells about TSP and Oxyclean..I for one have read this thread and know that several T-villians are excited about this "quick" way to save seeds.. TSP and Oxyclean do not have powdered chlorine in them(not 100% sure)..can you clarify if you think the method is OK or not. I have actually heard good reports from some that have been using these chemicals.

I have no hands-on experience using Oxiclean to clean seeds but others here do and I hope that they chime in.

Oxiclean's active ingredient is sodium pecarbonate; sodium carbonate that has been treated with hydrogen peroxide. You are correct in saying that there are no chlorine salts in it. (They also throw in some sodium carbonate, good old fashioned washing soda, to increase volume as a filler to save on costs)

I have used TSP (trisodium phosphate) with very good results, but this year I'm fermenting them in cups inside of my boiler room. It is vented in there and I keep the door closed. TSP works best in very warm water and like Oxiclean, you have to measure it when you use it...not just dump some in and pray.

[Suze]

Thomas, I've had good results with using Oxiclean. Seeds germinate very well even after a few years. It's nothing new that I personally came up with; I just don't think many knew about it because it wasn't discussed a lot. I originally got the idea from Tony in Orlando (FL) several years ago and decided to try it for myself.

[MsCowpea]

I agree that there is alot of misinformation floating around on the internet.

As for as AJAX, I guess I would place it in the same OXICLEAN category of seed treatment--neither used by major
seed companies that's for sure. But I don't see Ajax as particularly toxic either.

I always use this site to look up information about products

http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov...ds&id=16003060

.
Looked up Comet as Ajax doesn't give me all the ingredients. In Comet gel product sodium hypochlorite (bleach) was 1.5 %. , unspecified in other products.

I do know that using bleach is also a standard seed treatment . There are many university sites that recommend the treatment particularly when dealing with a seed borne disease such as bacterial spot. Whereas it was once feared to inhibit germination to an unacceptable degree later studies showed if done properly germination was negligently effected. (can't remember where I read this , will have to find it)

The amount of powdered chlorine in Ajax, Comet, etc would not be comparable to pool chlorine.

Rationally , as I know chlorine is used as a seed treatment, the fact that it is an ingredient in Ajax and Comet with Bleach would not overly concern me, I don't know about the other ingredients (ie fragrances, detergents, etc) though they are probably harmless. Sodium hydroxide, found in MANY cleaning products is know commonly as caustic lye. Perhaps that is contributing to dissolving the seed gel.

As for as the effect of Ajax or Comet on germination--easy to test--just try it on some seeds and then sprout the seeds.

Now would I use AJAX or OXICLEAN?-- No, I don't know to what degree they remove seed coat pathogens. The standard treatments have been tested by universities and seed companies.

So I would still use fermentation (or bleach as outlined on a reputable site.)

-------------------------
ie planting hybrid seed

Every 'volunteer' I ever had in the garden that was allowed to grow (saved by my husband as I don't want them) has tasted terrible. Tasteless, thick, thick skins. I presume they came from a hybrid.

Not fair to tell someone that they will probably get a great tasting tomato. If you want to experiment, fine, but if you have very limited space you should be told that a hybrid may not come true to seed (unless, perhaps it is a cherry).

.

[korney19]

I used TSP in the past & I like it. I think Tom Wagner was the one that told me about TSP. I actually fermented seeds for a couple days then used TSP when rinsing. TSP kills any chance of TMV.

I bought mine in a half gallon carton at a local hardware store. I left it on the toilet tank in the bathroom, that's where I rinse seeds. We had a cleaning company come in to do a house cleaning and the TSP "grew feet and walked." I think they told me something like it's banned in NY State.

[the999bbq]

Why do with if you can do without ? The disease/virus/pathogens mentionned or unfamiliar to me, nor their extent (will they kill the seedling or devestate all your plants when present?) but I'm willing to loose a plant by the classic routine of fermenting (natures way) - maybe even a normal selection going on there... if that would be the consequence of nothing using chemicals. The instant result is not big enough as advantage compared to the few days of fermenting (I forgot some of my cups and they all germinated under water - so fresh seed is keen on growing and dormancy until dry and wet again is bogus ;-) )

[tomatoguy]

Here is my alltime favorite bad advice. Anyone who tries this could become somewhat deceased. I have actually e-mailed these folks and told them they were headed for a lawsuit but got no reply.

http://www.olympus.net/dggordon/EatASample.htm

mater

[bugsy]

Eating maggots/hornworms per se aren't usually a problem and in fact are routinely eaten in other countries.

The only problem I see would be due to the glycoalkaloids that the hornworms ingest when they eat the tomato leaves. I didn't read up and see if they stay in the worm but if they do, then yeah I would imagine you'd get quite sick.

[tomatoguy]

My point exactly. Where else would you get hornworms except from your tomato patch? What are they full of? I think I will pass on the hornworms. I doubt eating blister beetles is much fun, either, whether they are full of tomato leaves or not.

mater

[Fusion_power]

There is a very different perspective on seed cleaning if you are saving seed for commercial sale. It becomes crucially important to control diseases. For that reason, I studied university recommendations and tested for myself to be sure the seed I produce are clean and disease free.

Start out by saving seed from healthy plants. If the plant is on its last leg about to die from fusarium or whatever, it is not a candidate for seed saving unless it is your absolute last chance to save that variety.

I start out by fermenting seed for 3 to 5 days. Temperature determines exactly how long. If it is up in the 90's, 3 days is more than enough. Down in the 70's, I let them go 5 days. Once fermentation is done, I stir the seed and pulp vigorously with a long tined fork to break up any clumps. I then pour the seed and pulp into a fine stainless strainer and rub them with my fingers under running water. This breaks up any large pieces of tomato. Put them back in the container and float off any seed and pulp by filling the container with water, let it settle a moment so the good seed go to the bottom, then pour off whatever floats. Repeat the filling with water, settling, and pouring off at least 3 times, more if needed. Once the seed are clean, I leave some water in the container with the seed and pour in plain bleach at a rate of 1 part bleach to 2 parts water. This gives a mix of about 2% sodium hypochlorite. You have it right when most of the seed that were previously on the bottom now are floaters. Stir the seed again with the fork and then let them set for 2 minutes. Pour them into the strainer again and rinse thoroughly under running water. Then place the seed on paper plates to dry.

Seed handled this way give as close as you can get to 100% germination. Disease will not be transmitted on the seedcoat though be warned that some diseases can be inside the seed where the bleach does NOT reach.

Fusion - who saves about 1,000,000 tomato seed per year.

[palerider]

the old tried and true works for me I'm afraid. Fermentation, and straining and cleaning, not a big job, and no chemicals.
We don't get hornworm Here in the south of the world. I can't say I've ever thought about eating our garden pests ever. Maybe a Funnel Web Spider Quiche?, or a Curl Grub Souffle?.
I think the word is BLECCHHH!
And what wine would go with them?.

[Hilde]

Originally Posted by palerider

We don't get hornworm Here in the south of the world. I can't say I've ever thought about eating our garden pests ever. Maybe a Funnel Web Spider Quiche?, or a Curl Grub Souffle?.
I think the word is BLECCHHH!
And what wine would go with them?.

I suggest to serve it with fava beans and a nice Chianti.

[jwr6404]

How do the large distributers of seeds prepare their seeds for packaging and sale? just curious.