One of my other Beta crosses

[crmauch]

As I mentioned before, I did a 97L97XOpalka cross. That same year I did another cross of Jaune Flamme X Heidi. I didn't grow out the F2 until this year. I grew 8 plants and this is what I got (with one apology - the uncut tomatoes are rotated in reference to the cut ones):

prior to cutting the tomato from plant 1 is on the lower right):
JFxHeidiF2_2 - Copy.jpg

After cutting (the plant 1 tomato is now on the upper right):
JFxHeidiF2Cut.jpg


I also have Jaune Flamme in the picture as a comparison.


I liked the F1 plant the best as it had good size and decent flavor. All the F2 were rather dry (as you can see) inside. This also answered a question for me. Some catalogs list Heid as a indeterminate and some as a semi-determinate (which means it has the determinate gene, but has modifier genes that let it grow longer than other determinates.) Well plant 7 (the red tomato) is definitely determinate, so it resolves for me that Heidi is semi-determinate. I saved seeds from plant 1 as it was meaty, decent flavor and the largest fruit of the 8 plants. I'm a little concerned that the F2s were so hollow inside. I'm going to watch that going forward.

THe one frustration with this line is that Jaune Flamme has the beta gene, but not the modifier gene that has the fruit express pure beta and not carotene (which is why they develop a red blush),

[bower]

You can always cross them into your other line for the modifier, if you you find something here that has at least some of the traits you wanted. You could grow the generation before grape in your other line, cross with the offspring of your largest here.
Bottom line, only the simplest problems can be solved by growing one cross to stability. 4 parent crosses shake up the linkage and release unsuspected traits. May not do it in seven years, but do it until you get what you wanted!

[crmauch]

Originally Posted by bower

You can always cross them into your other line for the modifier, if you you find something here that has at least some of the traits you wanted. You could grow the generation before grape in your other line, cross with the offspring of your largest here.
Bottom line, only the simplest problems can be solved by growing one cross to stability. 4 parent crosses shake up the linkage and release unsuspected traits. May not do it in seven years, but do it until you get what you wanted!

I think the simplest solution will be to breed Jaune Flamme to 97L97 and then back cross to itself (self the cross). The Beta gene and determinancy are linked on the same chromosome and difficult to break, but if I can take the interminancy from JF and the modifier from 97L97, I'll be a long way along. Just have to remember to breed JF and 97L97 together!


My Punnett square was here (post 32):beta carotene discussion

[KarenO]

Another option would be to grow more F2. 8 is not a lot to select from. Are you trying to replicate your F1 that you liked? Curious what your goal is, a beta paste?
There’s all kinds of options easier than a lot of back crossing at this point including the simplest which is perhaps a new cross with different parents if you don’t like what you got from this one?
For myself perhaps I’m lazy but I’d grow out more F2 from the original cross before I’d get too deep into all sorts of backcrossing and if i did not find something i wanted to go forward with from the Larger F2 growout I would consider other options at that point.
My personal choice would be a new cross rather than trying to wrangle with one that’s not giving me what I want.
From my admittedly and deliberately simplistic crossing style, that’s my 2cents.
A Bigger F2 growout especially with a wide cross like that will give you more to work with.
KarenO

[crmauch]

Originally Posted by KarenO

Another option would be to grow more F2. 8 is not a lot to select from. Are you trying to replicate your F1 that you liked? Curious what your goal is, a beta paste?
There’s all kinds of options easier than a lot of back crossing at this point including the simplest which is perhaps a new cross with different parents if you don’t like what you got from this one?
For myself perhaps I’m lazy but I’d grow out more F2 from the original cross before I’d get too deep into all sorts of backcrossing and if i did not find something i wanted to go forward with from the Larger F2 growout I would consider other options at that point.
My personal choice would be a new cross rather than trying to wrangle with one that’s not giving me what I want.
From my admittedly and deliberately simplistic crossing style, that’s my 2cents.
A Bigger F2 growout especially with a wide cross like that will give you more to work with.
KarenO

A beta paste is what I'm trying to achieve and I'm getting close to what I'm looking for (similar to 97L97, but indeterminate and more flavor (why the breeding with Opalka and Heidi). The problem is getting the linkage of Beta to determinate growth in the chromosome. So a Jaune Flamme cross with 97L97 maikes sense in that I can get the indeterminate and beta from Jaune Flamme and the modifier gene from 97L97. I grow many different types and lines of tomatoes (I grew 63 plants this year) but have trouble not growing any one type (or more) to fit in more plants of one breeding line.

[KarenO]

I hear ya but if you start early and crowd them you should be able to identify and cull determinate plants at first bloom if you don’t want them them, on the other hand, the concentrated set of a determinate is a good thing in a paste imo in that if canning/ sauce is the plan then enough fruit ripening at once is a feature of determinate plants that people like.
Good luck with your project!
KarenO

[bower]

A bigger grow out is certainly worth it, especially if looking for outliers. You mention the dryness of the fruit as a trait you didn't want - it's certainly a common paste trait, and I suspect that is coming from Heidi, and if affecting all of them, it appears to be dominant. So a bigger F2 might not get you anything different, but a bigger F3 could do it.
The worst thing with a dominant trait like that, you have no way of knowing if your selected fruit is homozygous or heterozygous for it.

So ideally your minimum F2 growout would be large enough to net you two promising candidates, and by growing the F3 of both in the amount needed to get a recessive, you'd have more certainty of finding it.

Planning alas is easy in hindsight, when the surprise trait has already turned up.
Just another comment too about Beta and linkage - what I also found was that segregation didn't line up with expected numbers - you would have to grow more to find what you're looking for. So bigger growout is good from that POV too. But it might be a LOT more if the linkage hasn't been cracked in the cross. This is the reason for backcrossing or any cross between unstable generations, to increase the chance of breaking it.
(None of these issues apply to the awesome crosses you made, KarenO , with bicolor genetics, which produced such a beautiful array of diverse tomatoes with no interfering linkage issues.

[KarenO]

Originally Posted by bower

A bigger grow out is certainly worth it, especially if looking for outliers. You mention the dryness of the fruit as a trait you didn't want - it's certainly a common paste trait, and I suspect that is coming from Heidi, and if affecting all of them, it appears to be dominant. So a bigger F2 might not get you anything different, but a bigger F3 could do it.
The worst thing with a dominant trait like that, you have no way of knowing if your selected fruit is homozygous or heterozygous for it.

So ideally your minimum F2 growout would be large enough to net you two promising candidates, and by growing the F3 of both in the amount needed to get a recessive, you'd have more certainty of finding it.

Planning alas is easy in hindsight, when the surprise trait has already turned up.
Just another comment too about Beta and linkage - what I also found was that segregation didn't line up with expected numbers - you would have to grow more to find what you're looking for. So bigger growout is good from that POV too. But it might be a LOT more if the linkage hasn't been cracked in the cross. This is the reason for backcrossing or any cross between unstable generations, to increase the chance of breaking it.
(None of these issues apply to the awesome crosses you made, KarenO , with bicolor genetics, which produced such a beautiful array of diverse tomatoes with no interfering linkage issues.

My main point is an F2 growout of 8 plants is a very small representation of the possibilities in any wide cross.
KO

[bower]

Originally Posted by KarenO

My main point is an F2 growout of 8 plants is a very small representation of the possibilities in any wide cross.
KO

Agree!

[crmauch]

Originally Posted by KarenO

My main point is an F2 growout of 8 plants is a very small representation of the possibilities in any wide cross.

How many would you generally grow for the F2?


TIA (Thanks in Advance)!

[KarenO]

Originally Posted by crmauch

How many would you generally grow for the F2?


TIA (Thanks in Advance)!

As many as I have room for and it depends what I’m looking for. For example in a RL PL cross I grow perhaps 100 seeds, cull right away to the approx 25% potato leaf I am looking for and grow the best and strongest 15 of those perhaps. Depends on your goals in a planned cross.
My Multiflora I am working on I grew out about 150 seeds, culled to just dwarf and regular potato leaf seedlings about 40 in total this year.
More the better is the bottom line F2 is an odds game imo more you grow the more likely you’ll find something good basically
Karen

[Nan_PA_6b]

How to get more plants into less space:
1. Seed the first batch of F2.
2. Pinch & prune to one stem.
3. At plant out, squeeze those bad boys in. Keep pruning.

4. At the same time, start another batch of F2 seeds. Keep 'em pruned.

5. Cull the first batch ASAP; all those without the determinate growth, all those with the wrong taste or dryness. No plant need go beyond the first one or two ripe fruits. Save seed of anything you like, then rip the plant out.

6. As soon as one is culled, plant another from the second batch in its place. When it's too late in the year to get ripe fruits, plant the rest of the second batch in gallon pots & keep pruning. You can leave the pots outside until it's too cold, then nurse them to first fruits inside.

[Nan_PA_6b]

All those dry hollow fruited plants you've got- if they have any taste at all, grow them out into stuffers. The world needs a stuffer tomato about 2-4 oz. with any kind of decent taste. Plant 1 looks like the insides could be easily scooped out, which would make it excellent.