I thought I had it, but just confused more now...

[kevokie]

So, here is the deal. I'm really trying to learn this crossing stuff and dehybridizing but kinda struggling. I have looked at the links in the sticky and they helped quite a bit. Here is where the confusion got me. I'm gonna use Brandyboy as it is the plant that confused me. If I have this right, Brandyboy is an F1 hybrid. All F1's are gonna be the same. If I were going to "dehybridize" this mater, then I should start seeing some differences come the F2 generation. Here is where I am confused. I was searching the forums and came upon a thread that stated when people grew out their F2's, they had some that were regular leaves, and some were potato leaves. How in the world is this possible? I thought that PL is a recessive trait and that once it is expressed, it must be expressed from then on. That may not make sense...not sure.

Maybe I need to re-read some stuff and get a better grip on it, but could someone explain how Brandyboy F2's are spitting out RL plants. It's probably something that is really a simple explanation. Thanks!

[Tom Wagner]

Kevokie writes:

So, here is the deal. I'm really trying to learn this crossing stuff and dehybridizing but kinda struggling. I have looked at the links in the sticky and they helped quite a bit.

I am, indeed, happy to know that folks want to learn 'crossing stuff' and it is a life time's worth of struggle; finding the time, the space, the learning. As a moderator on the CrossTalk, I am the first the admit that I am not as forth-coming with the stickies as I might offer for novices and experts alike.

Here is where the confusion got me. I'm gonna use Brandyboy as it is the plant that confused me. If I have this right, Brandyboy is an F1 hybrid. All F1's are gonna be the same. If I were going to "dehybridize" this mater, then I should start seeing some differences come the F2 generation.

Brandy Boy is a hybrid, yes. If the company that puts the variety out (Burbee) is good as their reputation is they will contract the two parents out to a custom hybridizing company and the hybrid seed is tested for true to type, germination and other quality control measures. BTW, I have elsewhere indicated that I abhor the term 'dehybridization' and prefer the terms selfing, open pollination, segregation, recombination, etc.
I could no more dehybridize a hybrid to the original parents than I could marry one of my sisters to recreate both of my parents, thus my uneasiness with that 'd' word.

Here is where I am confused. I was searching the forums and came upon a thread that stated when people grew out their F2's, they had some that were regular leaves, and some were potato leaves. How in the world is this possible? I thought that PL is a recessive trait and that once it is expressed, it must be expressed from then on. That may not make sense...not sure.

Brandy Boy is a hybrid between two potato leafed strains. My guess is that they used an original Brandywine as one parent and the other a potato leaf, pink fruited, line with the Disease Resistance: of....
Fusarium Wilt (F)
Verticillium Wilt (V)
Root Nematodes (N)
Tobacco Mosaic (T)



It is possible that both parents are Brandywine backcrosses to get the desired disease resistances and selfed out to get uniform breeding lines. I don't know, and I have not talked with the breeder about this and I probably should, but knowing most breeders, proprietary information such as parents will not be disclosed.

Maybe I need to re-read some stuff and get a better grip on it, but could someone explain how Brandyboy F2's are spitting out RL plants. It's probably something that is really a simple explanation. Thanks!

This topic has been covered many times if you 're-read some stuff and get a better grip on it'; my pun intended, sorry! Any hoo, the very nature of most potato leafed varieties such as Brandywine are usually large fruited type with big clumsy flowers that are discombobulated, so to speak. The female part of the flower, the pistil, which includes the style and stigma is exerted The exerted pistil is longer than exerted stamens. and the flowers appear to be suited for outcrossing as well as selfing. So, even though most of the flower was self-pollinated or sib-mated, too many other varieties of tomatoes are usually abundant elsewhere that ain't potato leafed and the resulting seed saved from one or more fruits contain that contaminated seed in whatever percentages.

Look at the link below, it shows the idealized picture of a Brandy Boy F-1. Nice!

http://www.burpee.com/images/en_US//...ail/B61101.jpg

Now look at the actuality of a gardener's photo of a Brandy Boy. See link below. You will notice the flower scar. When you see imperfections like that you know the flower was not perfect but convoluted in shape and the pistil was attached with it's style to the ovary with a less than perfect round connection. If the style was flattened, corrugated, whatever, it likely is a candidate for cross pollination. Also note the potato leaf. Disregard the leaf blemishes.
http://www.sky-bolt.com/images/tomatobrandyboys.jpg


Burpee admits that Brandywine has its drawbacks.

The tomatoes (Brandywine) are often misshapen with uneven shoulder ripening. The plants grow wildly, set fruit late in the summer and yield a sparse crop at best. But not Brandy Boy! Our new hybrid Brandywine produces loads of large pink fruits, up to 5½ inches across, that ripen evenly, with soft heirloom texture, thin skin and that same incredible Brandywine flavor. Better yet the plants sport an upright more manageable growth habit. Brandy Boy is an indeterminate variety, ready to pick 75-78 days after setting out plants. If you love tomatoes like we do, and especially the rich, tangy-sweet taste of Brandywine, don't miss Brandy Boy! Indeterminate."

So far the past few seasons with many gardeners, they've tend to have some cracking and stretch marks at the top. Again, many gardeners say that Brandy Boys are also susceptible to "catfacing", deformities at the blossom end of the fruit.




Burpee officials state;

"It was the greatest heirloom that everyone loved to hate. But the emphasis is on love, because that flavor in the tomato world is completely unique,"....
Looking to maintain the renowned taste of 'Brandywine' but shed its flaws, the company spent years cross-breeding it with tomatoes that fruited earlier and set fruit more reliably. The result is 'Brandy Boy,' a hybrid.
'Brandy Boy' puts on pink, beefsteak-sized tomatoes in clusters of three. Bred for vigor, its physiological rate of growth was accelerated naturally so that it's ready for harvest at least two weeks before its namesake.

The biggest complaint I've heard is that the tomatoes of Brandy Boy can be a little ugly with some catfacing, but that's not a 'Oh, No!' problem.



So blame it on the 'catfacing' for those regular leafed F-2 segregations. They are likely crosses with other lines in the local fresh air.



I breed potato leaf traits into smaller fruited tomato lines and I get considerably less outcrossing to throw regular leaf seedlings. We notice the seedlings of potato leaf varieties because we trust the plant to be as pure as the wind driven snow, and when we see potato leaf and regular leaf offspring we 'go nuts' or more!



If we save seed of a regular leaf tomato and get potato leaf seedlings, we have a whole host of miscegenations on both sides of the family and I don't want to have to explain that unless I have to.



I know my response to Kevokie was long winded, but hey, I sensed the confusion and wished to add to it.



Tom Wagner

[Vince]

Grew out a bunch of Brandy boy F2 last fall. All were pink potato leaf and productive. The flavor was consistently excellent, with the main differences being earliness, the degree of ribbing, and size. I will grow out F3 this fall from two selections (early) and (large productive, every single fruit from this plant was over 1lb). I know others are working on open pollinated variations of the BB F1. I think some people that post here are out to F7 or more.

Vince