Interested in Growing a Multiflora Dwarf?

[heirloomtomaguy]

I for one Dan am a big fan of Micro Multiflora and i think there is a definite following. I see these little guys as a way for a kid to grow them in a window at school or at home, for people living in apartments who like fresh tomatoes to do the same, or for a sweet little elderly couple to enjoy growing and eating tomatoes even though they may not be able to tend a garden anymore. With that said i will continue working on the ones i have and will grow anything you send my friend.

[salix]

I have been following this thread as well, and must confess to 'sort of waiting' for promising results because I have been quite busy with the Dwarf Project as well as the regular garden. If more growing spots are needed for your project, I can help out a bit. My interest lies in the fact that I grow and provide plants mainly for seniors who may only have a patio or balcony to grow on, having given up a garden.

I am saving seeds from my favourite F2 and F3 plants, and will be growing them inside this winter.

[gardeninglee]

I am very interested in this project. I have a small patio but I love to garden so I really want to be able to grow as much as possible in my limited space. The multiflora micros you are working on are really the ideal tomato plant for someone in my situation. I always thought I could not garden because I didn't have enough space. I've had a few neighbors approach me in the last couple of weeks to ask me about the dwarf tomato plants I have.

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by LDiane

I am saving seeds from my favourite F2 and F3 plants, and will be growing them inside this winter.

Good to hear. I will be interested in seeing what you come up with. I have a couple very interesting new ones I found this summer I'd like to have a few others grow if someone wants to try a couple more.

[Barb_FL]

I'm starting my fall Multiflora seeds tomorrow. I have the seeds sent last Feb. I grew two different ones then but it was late in the year for sowing so just grew 2 plants.

If there are others you prefer me to grow out, I'm open.

[Idahowoman]

Dan ,
My f1s did very well . Will add pictures and reports soon.
Susan

I wonder how winter-grown ones will compare in size to the summer ones growing in my allotment. I think I'll grow them in 1 gallon pots in the greenhouse, so I could grow a hundred or so (have to leave room for the peppers and peas).

I just noticed I haven't picked any tomatoes from my eleven plants of 12xF3-7 yet.

[disneynut1977]

So sorry, I have not posted pictures yet, I have them stored and will do. There is 2 lines so far I have gotten, 100% I want to continue to grow out. My striped larger cherry and I also got a very petite, maybe 3/8 inch D. purple/black cherries with a nipple on a short plant. Very excited about both. I am currently fermenting seeds on these 2 along with some others.

[jmsieglaff]

Below are my 19xF1 fruits. The F1 is a fine tasting tomato. I saved seeds from all those fruit and may do another round.

Dan can you share your F2 micro hunting advice? I'm planning on sowing some seed after they are fermented and will attempt to grow them this fall/winter along the south facing patio door.

I'm growing 11 plants of 12xF3-7, which I sampled today. They are my favourite.

They are growing at my allotment garden which has fertile clay soil so they are bigger than I expected, with horizontal branches interwoven with their neighbours.

They all taste good, and two are delicious. They are all red, mostly round, but a couple are a bit oval. Size ranges from 2.7 to 3.5 cm across. They all have a sharp little nipple on the bottom. Almost all have moderate to big clusters, and only two plants are not prolific producers.

No disease yet. I will keep the plants going to see if they are going to be susceptible to late blight which often shows up when we get fall rain.

I will be growing plants from several of them in my greenhouse this winter.

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by jmsieglaff

.... Dan can you share your F2 micro hunting advice? I'm planning on sowing some seed after they are fermented and will attempt to grow them this fall/winter along the south facing patio door.

I'll give it a try. Sorry I'm slow getting to it. I'm wordy, but here goes....

I’m sure there are a lot of different ways to go about finding the dwarf and micros out of these crosses, but I’ll explain the way I have found that works best for me. I start by determining how many seeds to plant initially. The most important thing I have learned is to start lots more than you think you need and cull unmercifully.

I’ll walk through a search for micro multiflora in F2s of one of these crosses of the micro multiflora with a normal indeterminate. I’ll go through an ‘an almost worst case’ that takes lots of culling and hunting to find a few of what I am looking for. The cross in this hypothetical is a cross of a PL indeterminate with the RL micro-multiflora looking for a micro-multiflora. The expected results from this cross should be:

* Three out of four will be indeterminate – the other 1 of 4 will be dwarf/micro (1 of 4)
* Of the dwarf/micros, 3 of 4 will be dwarf – the other 1 of 4 will be micro (1 of16)
* Of the micros, 3 of 4 will be normal flora – the other 1 in 4 will be multiflora (1 of 64)
* To get 16 micro multifloras, you need to sprout approximately 1024 seeds.

If you expect 90% germination, that means planting approximately 1150 seeds.

I start seeds in 288 cell starting trays (http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies...44_109045.html). This same basic process would work if used Craig’s dense planting method or most any other way of starting seeds. I take more time initially planting the seeds, but I think it is made up for by the time it saves through the rest of the process.

In the above example trying for sixteen micro multi-flora I would:

* Plant 4 seeds in each cell – 1,152 seeds total.
* As soon as a significant percentage of the seeds have sprouted – before they start to get their first set of true leaves – I start to cull
* I use a small pair of cutters and clip the tops off 2/3 to 3/4 of the tallest seedlings.
* Start with those that are obviously tallest. Once the tallest are gone, another bunch will look taller than many. Keep doing that until you they are relatively uniform.
* The more quickly the tall ones are gone, the better the short ones do.
* I do the same thing again a few days later – and repeat that process as needed until they are ready to pot up.
* You have to be aware of week-old compared to those just sprouting and take that into consideration.
* I have not done any controlled studies, but the height of the seedling when it first opens its cotyledons seem to be directly related to how tall the plant eventually grows. Well, maybe not its final height, but at least it is a good predictor of indeterminate vs dwarf.
* When in doubt, cut the top of all but the shortest in any one cell. If a seedling has a shorter one beside it, cut it off.
* By the time they are ready to pot up I want to have gotten rid of the tallest 90% - approximately 6% will be micros.
* I usually pot them up a little later than normal to give them time to separate as much as possible in size. In this example, I’d pot up 75-100, obviously starting with the shortest.
* Occasionally, one that is among the taller ones remains small after potting up, but not usually. I cull more harshly than I used to – I may miss some, but it saves a lot of time.
* I then leave them in the 4” pots (red cups, really) until they show blossoms and I can identify the multiflora from the regular.
* I have seen people on other forums talk about identifying multiflora before they show blossoms by looking for a certain leaf curl. Perhaps they have a different multiflora gene that has that ‘tell’, but I have not been able to find anything that identifies the trait ahead of them showing blossoms.
* Identifying the multiflora gets easier as you see more of them. Often the first batch of blossoms aren’t as heavy as later ones, but they are always different than the normal.
* You can usually see them because they show blossoms sprouting in several directions and a many different angles, while the normal blossoms kind of hang off the stem in one direction.

There you have it. That’s what I do.

There are several variations on the above scenario:

* If you are looking for PL, the above scenario would only give you 4 to work with at the end instead of 16, but the process simplifies some because the RL seedlings can be culled as soon as they show the first leaves and they thin out quickly.
* If you are looking for dwarf instead of micro you would get the same 16 by starting with 256 sprouted seeds instead of 1024.
* It is much easier to separate the dwarf from the regular indeterminate than it is to separate the micro from the dwarf.
* The dwarfs are stockier than the indeterminates and usually show the rugose leaves – but the micros share those characteristics and differ from the dwarfs only in their final size.

The projected numbers I list are based on the assumption that the MMF size is controlled by two different recessive genes – the dwarf (or Tree Type) gene and a second gene which I know nothing about.

I don’t think it is quite that clear-cut – especially when it comes to the dwarf/micro breakout. I have expressed my opinion earlier in this thread that I don’t think there is a clear differentiation between dwarf and micro, but a continuum – and we’re looking for those at one end of the spectrum. However, the 3 out of 4 being indeterminate appears to be fairly accurate and are quite easy to cull very early.

Feel free to correct any errors of logic or erroneous assumptions I have made in the above scenario (or if it just doesn't make sense - It's late and I'm tired)

[dfollett]

In the above example looking for the MMF, we end up with 16 out of the 1024 we sprouted and 4 of those were PL.

Starting Assumptions:

• Assume the male parent was a yellow heart and the female the red MMF
• Assume I want to find a yellow heart MMF – and none of the first four PL MMF were yellow or heart.
• The 16 MMF should be fixed for MMF and the 4 PL fixed for that also.
• I will assume the yellow color is controlled by another recessive gene and the heart shape a different one. (That may not be entirely correct, but for learning sake, let’s assume)
• With the above scenario we would find 1 PL MMF from 256 sprouted.
• To get a yellow PL MMF the odds change to 1 from 1024
• To get the yellow heart PL MMF, the odds increase to 1 from 4096

The questions – What is the best way to find the yellow heart MMF after growing out the 16 MMF from the above scenario?

1. Start over with a new bunch of F2 seed until you find a yellow heart MMF – theoretically you should find one within four tries of 1024 sprouts. (Might get lucky the first time, might take six.)
2. Plant F3 seed from the 4 PL MMF looking for a yellow heart?
3. Plant F3 seed from a yellow RL MMF (assuming there was one) looking for a PL heart?
4. Plant F3 seed from a red RL heart MMF (assuming there was one) looking for a yellow PL?
5. Back cross the PL MMF back to the full-size yellow heart parent? (Seems too slow having to go back through the F1 – F2 MMF hunt again – PL would be already there though)
6. There are many other crossing scenarios depending on what showed up in the first 16–
7. .....Yellow MMF X PL MMF
8. .....PL heart MMF X Yellow MMF
9. .....Lots more….

There are undoubtedly a myriad of ways to get a yellow heart PL MMF, but which one gives the best chance of getting there most quickly? Or are they about the same? I would be inclined to go with #2 above and plant lots of F3 from all 4 PL MMF plants looking for the yellow heart. This is well beyond my genetics expertise to figure out the likelihood of getting what from the F3s.

Is there a BEST approach?

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by LDiane

I wonder how winter-grown ones will compare in size to the summer ones growing in my allotment. I think I'll grow them in 1 gallon pots in the greenhouse, so I could grow a hundred or so (have to leave room for the peppers and peas).

I just noticed I haven't picked any tomatoes from my eleven plants of 12xF3-7 yet.

From my experience, they get a little taller under lights than they do outside in the sun.

[jmsieglaff]

Dan,

Many many thanks for your write up. I will definitely be referencing this and using your methods.

You also answered a question I was going to ask, do I need more seed? The F1 has a number of tomatoes starting to blush and I'm going to save seed from the remainder. My initial seed saving resulted in many hundred. I didn't count but I'd guess 300-400 seeds. So more seed saving is in order.

I will be starting my initial F2 seeds soon to try to grow over the winter. My goal to to find a multi-flora microdwarf or 3 to grow along my south facing patio door this fall/winter/early spring.