2017 Grafting thread: Open to all

Originally Posted by b54red

You should be able to find it in an auto parts store. Look at different oil absorbent products. On the contents listing it should say if it is diatomaceous earth or some form of clay. You may have to look several places to find it but I would think it would be available world wide for that use or as a cat litter.

Bill

Thanks Bill, I need to go shopping soon so will check a few stores if I get a chance. So far I've only checked auto parts online stores. One of the problem being an invalid is getting out and about. The online listings here only seem to just be concerned with price and claims of efficacy, not the actual contents of the packet. I dare say I'll need to read that myself.

Cheers,
Shaun.

[b54red]

Originally Posted by 5haun5

Thanks Bill, I need to go shopping soon so will check a few stores if I get a chance. So far I've only checked auto parts online stores. One of the problem being an invalid is getting out and about. The online listings here only seem to just be concerned with price and claims of efficacy, not the actual contents of the packet. I dare say I'll need to read that myself.

Cheers,
Shaun.

Many of the online sites will have a tab for description of the product that will tell you what it is made of. At least here in the states that is usually the case. Below is a product from Auto Zone that I use for seed starting and if you look down below where it says chemical it says 100% diatomaceous earth.

http://www.autozone.com/shop-and-gar...sorb-absorbent

Bill

[Fritz77]

Originally Posted by b54red

You should be able to find it in an auto parts store. Look at different oil absorbent products. On the contents listing it should say if it is diatomaceous earth or some form of clay. You may have to look several places to find it but I would think it would be available world wide for that use or as a cat litter.

Bill

It seems like 5haun5 and I share some of the doubts and technical difficulties that tomato growers in America don’t have. My rootstock seeds were difficult to find and grafting clips were not only difficult to find in different sizes and shapes but also pretty expensive.
Moving on and reading more posts I realized that I didn’t know what DE was when you mentioned it, but I assumed it was the gravel like material in which most of you guys placed your grafted seedlings. I had to ask Gardeneer who kindly explained it to me.
DE might be the biggest cost I have to face and I’m still debating if it’s worth buying it. On Ebay and Amazon I only found imported products in large quantities. Far more than I actually need. I watched some videos on Youtube (we all did I guess..) and after grafting the seedlings they usually just placed them onto the humidity chamber in what looks like plain potting mix.
Has anyone experienced successful grafting without using DE?

[Fritz77]

Originally Posted by jtjmartin

I started my first RST rootstock seeds in potting soil. I started the next group of RST seeds in DE about a week later.

I've found that the RST rootstock germinates in DE in less than half the time. Huh.

Does the small DE make better contact with the seeds increasing the amount of heat and water? Easier for the emerging seedling to push out and grow? I don't know but I'm very impressed with germinating in DE.

Jeff

Another thing I noticed is that even people who live in supposedly colder area than me, have already started their seeds. Are you planning on growing your tomatoes in a low tunnel or in some kind of protected enviroment? If not, when are you planning on moving your grafted seedlings outside and/or into the ground? In my area there is a low risk of frost until the end of March. I remember one morning frost on April 5th many years ago, but that was an exception.
I’m planning on starting my first seeds around March 10-13.

Originally Posted by Fritz77

It seems like 5haun5 and I share some of the doubts and technical difficulties that tomato growers in America don’t have. My rootstock seeds were difficult to find and grafting clips were not only difficult to find in different sizes and shapes but also pretty expensive.
Moving on and reading more posts I realized that I didn’t know what DE was when you mentioned it, but I assumed it was the gravel like material in which most of you guys placed your grafted seedlings. I had to ask Gardeneer who kindly explained it to me.

I also didn't know what the acronym 'DE' stood for but read on and worked it out. The only 'DE' that I've used before is very fine powder that was used in the winery I used to work in to filter wine. I also used some of it in a pepper pot to dust aphids with. It kills them by dessication.

I'm envious of the ready availability of lots of horticultural products in the US. I've been hunting for a source of the good varieties of Mycorrhizae for the past few years but have come up empty

None of the auto parts stores who's websites I've searched even stock oil absorber - also I've never had need of it myself and I used to work in the automotive industry. Don't folks in the US use draining trays when they change their oil?

Originally Posted by Fritz77

DE might be the biggest cost I have to face and I’m still debating if it’s worth buying it. On Ebay and Amazon I only found imported products in large quantities. Far more than I actually need. I watched some videos on Youtube (we all did I guess..) and after grafting the seedlings they usually just placed them onto the humidity chamber in what looks like plain potting mix.
Has anyone experienced successful grafting without using DE?

It's my understanding that the use of DE reduces or eliminates 'damping off', a fungal disease of tomato seeds and seedlings. I've never noticed it present when I've germinated seeds so perhaps the use of DE isn't required. However people are reporting good results using DE so if I can find it I'd like to try it. I've done plenty of side-grafting, growing the plants in my usual blend of commercial seed raising mix and fine coir so if I can't get DE I'll try without.

Cheers,
Shaun.

[Fritz77]

Originally Posted by 5haun5

It's my understanding that the use of DE reduces or eliminates 'damping off', a fungal disease of tomato seeds and seedlings. I've never noticed it present when I've germinated seeds so perhaps the use of DE isn't required. However people are reporting good results using DE so if I can find it I'd like to try it. I've done plenty of side-grafting, growing the plants in my usual blend of commercial seed raising mix and fine coir so if I can't get DE I'll try without.

Cheers,
Shaun.

Sounds good to me. I think I'll go without DE. If I fail I'll blame the lack of DE and not my poor skills

[b54red]

Of course most people have success without using DE. I just live in a particularly humid area where it is a real problem. I resorted to using it to start my seedlings because the damping off problems were so bad. Since it worked for the seedlings I thought why not try DE in my grafting process to see if I could ameliorate the problems I was having with damping off in the healing chambers. I also found that by using the larger DE to put the graft in with fewer roots it helped greatly with the problem of separation of the graft due to moisture frequently forcing the two stems apart at the juncture. Before I started using this method my success rate was all over the place from batch to batch. Now my success rate is rather steady at over 90% so it is worth it for me to go the extra mile in my grafting. For most it might not be so much of an improvement as to be worth the extra time and effort. I went to great lengths to explain my process so that those having some of the same problems as me or those having a high failure rate could try what was working for me and see if it helped them.

Bill

[txtstorm]

@Fritz77 and 5haun5

After having gone through the process, I believe that DE probably isn't a necessity. If you can find products that are made of bentonite clay/montmorillonite clay, that may be something you could experiment with. Kitty litters are usually made with these materials. Some higher end kitty litters are also made with coarse DE, so that might be another avenue. Heck, even lava sand might work. Using the no-roots/few roots method that we've been doing, I don't think the medium is too big a deal. Bill seems to have better luck using very coarse DE, but its likely that you can be successful without it. I did a little rooting trial with bentonite clay and it seems to work much like the coarse DE. I can't imagine that it wouldn't work for grafting. I bet perlite would work just fine as well. Or, perlite mixed with peat (and/or vermiculite) to make the medium a little sturdier. Considering that tomato cuttings can root and stay alive in just a glass of water, you may have luck even using sand.

I used DE because I was able to find it and it was what was recommended by Bill and Delerium. If I wouldn't have been able to find it, I would have tried one of the options I mentioned above.

As for the clips, you might look for rubber or vinyl tubing in different sizes. You may have to grow your plants out a little more to graft them, but this might be an option. Parafilm is sometimes used, I believe. I almost wonder if Scotch tape would work in a pinch....or maybe some tubing and scotch tape to firm it up.

I think the trickiest part of the whole process is just getting the healing chamber part right.

I hope this might be helpful. Good luck guys!

Cheers,

Adam

PS. Yes! We do use oil pans for the most part. But our cars can be a little incontinent sometimes.

Thanks very much for the clarifications Bill and Adam, much appreciated.

As for the 'little incontinent' thing Adam - I followed Bills link and that stuff comes in 15 and 33 pound bags! That's a serious incontinence problem right there!

Right, off to Google 'how to use pelleted tomato rootstock seed'.

Cheers,
Shaun.

[BigVanVader]

Vermiculite is another option. It should work fine if you can get it.

Originally Posted by BigVanVader

Vermiculite is another option. It should work fine if you can get it.

Thanks BVV, I can get that - but only in 50 litre bags. Here in New Zealand hobbyist-level gardening seems to only happen in dirt. I guess it's one of the downsides of living in a fertile lush temperate country.

So the general theme is that it's best to use a semi-sterile non-soil rooting medium yeah? Remove the chances of bacterial and fungal issues as much as possible?

Cheers folks, I appreciate the sharing of knowledge.

Shaun.

[Father'sDaughter]

Another update on my trial starts --

All of the seedlings are now sprouting their first true leaves and still looking healthy as can be.

These were all sown on 2/11 and all sprouted and moved under lights on 2/17.

I sowed four Antique Roman, four Dester, four RST-04-106-T, and four DRO141TX seeds.

The Antique Roman, Dester, and RST seedling are all still uniform in size and are now about 2" tall.

The four DRO seedlings are only about 1 1/4" tall. If I didn't know better, I'd swear I had dwarf seedlings in those pots.

Not sure if everyone working with DRO will have the same experience, but based on what I'm seeing at this point I wouldn't wait too long between sowing scion and DRO seeds. In fact, I'm thinking I would have been okay sowing both at the same time.

Thanks for sharing your experience with DRO141TX, much appreciated as there's little out there that I can find. I'll share mine too when I plant the seeds but that will be in about 6 months.

[Father'sDaughter]

Originally Posted by 5haun5

Thanks for sharing your experience with DRO141TX, much appreciated as there's little out there that I can find. I'll share mine too when I plant the seeds but that will be in about 6 months.

I think it's just too new right now, at least on the home gardening front, as I also could not find much about it.

I know Bill has cautioned us many times to start rootstock later than scion seeds, but this one just might be an exception to that.

I just sowed enough rootstock seed for my main crop this morning -- most will be grafted onto DRO, with just five varieties also going onto RST for comparison. I'll keep you posted on what happens with DRO in this batch, as well as continue updates on the first four.

[jtjmartin]

Originally Posted by Fritz77

Another thing I noticed is that even people who live in supposedly colder area than me, have already started their seeds. Are you planning on growing your tomatoes in a low tunnel or in some kind of protected enviroment? If not, when are you planning on moving your grafted seedlings outside and/or into the ground? In my area there is a low risk of frost until the end of March. I remember one morning frost on April 5th many years ago, but that was an exception.
I’m planning on starting my first seeds around March 10-13.

Our average last frost is about 4/22. As soon as my seeds sprout, the young plants are moved to shelves in an unheated garage. Their growth slows, but they grow thick.

I can start seeds 10 weeks before the last average frost. I usually bury most of the stem when I plant out. Of course, I can't do that with grafted plants - but they should be smaller due to healing time.

If a late frost is predicted, I unhook my concrete reinforcing wire tomato cages to form a low tunnel over the tomatoes. A thrift store sheet is usually enough to get them through the night. This year, I will also try some Walls of Water.