Interested in Growing a Multiflora Dwarf?

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by korney19

Unless there are great differences between germination dates & times, I'm going with the far-left one almost off the screen too!

Agreed - even if there is a great difference between germination dates. From my experience when the cross is with an indeterminate - like this one is - the height of the first fake leaves nearly always tell it all. They hold true from then on.

[Barb_FL]

Having a good season so far.

[korney19]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Just updating b/c I got the variety descriptions from Ilex about an hour ago and he DID send the one from the elderlyman, and two more multifloras, and a couple of new GWRipes as wellas that beautiful striped one he pictured,

So tonight I am happy happy.

Carolyn

Uh-oh (how so you spell it?)

[jmsieglaff]

Here are some of my selected 19xF2 plants. I'm going select 3 or 4 from this group to plant into the final container. I'm hoping to get a peek at flower structure before I select. I am also going to try to see if any of these seem more dwarf instead of micro-dwarf as well.

One question, I am growing these under lights in the basement (on for 16 hours a day). We are entering the darkest 2 months of the year here. I was planning on putting these by our south facing patio door where they'd get maybe 8 hours sunlight (I grew some micro dwarves there last winter). But those were started around Christmas, so they day length kept increasing. I'm beginning to think these might do better under the lights until the days start getting longer later in the winter. Thoughts?

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by jmsieglaff

Here are some of my selected 19xF2 plants. I'm going select 3 or 4 from this group to plant into the final container. I'm hoping to get a peek at flower structure before I select. I am also going to try to see if any of these seem more dwarf instead of micro-dwarf as well.

One question, I am growing these under lights in the basement (on for 16 hours a day). We are entering the darkest 2 months of the year here. I was planning on putting these by our south facing patio door where they'd get maybe 8 hours sunlight (I grew some micro dwarves there last winter). But those were started around Christmas, so they day length kept increasing. I'm beginning to think these might do better under the lights until the days start getting longer later in the winter. Thoughts?

Good looking plants. I especially like the plant on the left side of the lower photo - very little distance between the leaf nodes. It looks like it should stay quite small.

I agree with you. I'd leave them under lights.

I have not had good luck getting plants to flower and set fruit in the windows without supplemental lights from early November until late January. I am sure it is day-length related, but I don't know how much is because of the actual number of hours of light and how much is due to the fact that the length of the day is decreasing. I assume the actual number of hours is the most critical variable, but both play a part.

I have 9.75 hours of sunlight today and it's shrinking each day - Not as bad as your 8 hours, though.

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by Barb_FL

Having a good season so far.

Great looking plant. Which cross is that?

[korney19]

I am hoping to start some seeds this weekend, but took the last few days rereading this thread and ChrisK's thread... plus I have been checking every active dwarf accession I could find info about...a lot of info will be cut & paste, and this may take some time--it's very difficult, wven moreao on an 8-inch tablet..

So far, I have found just a couple/few accessions that had multiple genes and/or alleles. There are at least EIGHT alleles for just the dwarf gene alone.

As for the sun dwarf gene, I could not find it used with the standard dwarf gene, nor any other gene or allele that affects plant size, of course I may have missed something I didn't know about. If anybody has knowledge of any other genes I didn't mention please post!

Here are some of the genes related to dwarf & micros.

d, the most common, the dwarf gene.

Mutant type: Spontaneous
Phenotype: Shortened hypocotyl, darker, broader and shorter cotyledons; stems heavy and erect; plant compact, internodes shortened to about 2.5cm; leaves very distinct, with reduced nuer and size of segments; dark green color, puckered rugose surface, down-curled magins, and broader, shorter outline of whole as well as individual segments; similar reduction in size and foreshortening of inflorescence, flowers and fruit.

Here are possible alleles for the d gene:

Allele: b
Allele name: broccoli
Synonym of Allele:
Mutant type: Spontaneous
Phenotype: Extreme dwarf; more stunted than d^x; leaves reduced to small, dark green globs of curled, rugose tissue; flowers reduced, with tiny corolla segments.

Allele: cr
Allele name: crispata
Synonym of Allele: rob^crisp
Mutant type: Radiation
Phenotype: Allele of phenotype intermediate between d and d^x.

Allele: im
Allele name:
Synonym of Allele: rob^imm
Mutant type: Radiation
Phenotype: All parts foreshortened; leaves dark and rugose.

Allele: prov2
Allele name: provisional 2
Synonym of Allele: d
Mutant type: Chemical
Phenotype: All parts foreshortened; leaves dark and rugose.
Notes: provisional allele symbol

Allele: provcr-2
Allele name: crispata
Synonym of Allele: d^cr
Mutant type: Chemical
Phenotype: All parts foreshortened; leaves dark and rugose.
Notes: provisional allele symbol

Allele: provcr-3
Allele name: crispata
Synonym of Allele: d^cr
Mutant type: Chemical
Phenotype: All parts foreshortened; leaves dark and rugose.
Notes: provisional allele symbol

Allele: provx-2
Allele name: extreme-2
Synonym of Allele: d^x
Mutant type: Spontaneous
Phenotype: All parts foreshortened; leaves dark and rugose.
Notes: provisional allele symbol

Allele: x
Allele name: extreme
Synonym of Allele:
Mutant type: Spontaneous
Phenotype: Resembles dwarf (d) but more extreme in all respects; growth is very slow; all parts of plant reduced in size and most organs modified in the direction of shorter and broader shape; leaves very dark green, the surface coarsely bullate and midrib twisted; plants are moderately fertile; recessive to d and to +.
Notes: Segregated in PI 188565, cv. San Pancrazio.
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As you can see, there are many possibilities with just one gene! Now to another dwarf
gene:
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fd, flecked dwarf

Mutant type: Radiation
Phenotype: Retarded at all stages; leaves flecked with light green.
Notes: In cv. Budai Korai.

Phenotype Details
Phenotypic Category: Chlorophyll deficiency: light, grey, or dull green
Is primary phenotype for this gene? No

Phenotypic Category: Variegation, flecking or striping
Is primary phenotype for this gene? Yes

Phenotypic Category: Plant habit or size
Is primary phenotype for this gene? No
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The flecked dwarf gene seems to involve color more than size.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------===-

sd, the sun dwarf gene

Mutant type: Spontaneous
Phenotype: Exposed leaves are greatly stunted, internodes less than 1 cm; stems somewhat constricted above the nodes, showing a brownish discoloration at first, scar tissue later; new shoots from base of plant grown normally until they break through the thick canopy of foliage; net effect on the whole plant is general stunting and extremely compact growth; growth is entirely normal throughout fall, winter and early spring, but during the rest of the year, phenotype is well expressed, at least under high light conditions; heterozygote is intermediate, but sometimes difficult to distinguish from +.
Notes: Appeared as mutant in cultures of G. C. Hanna.

Phenotype Details
Phenotypic Category: Plant habit or size
Is primary phenotype for this gene? Yes
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I only found 3 active accessions of sd.
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dm, dwarf modifier

Allele name:
Synonym of Allele: d2
Mutant type: Spontaneous
Phenotype: Causes extreme dwarfing.
Phenotype Details
Phenotypic Category: Plant habit or size
Is primary phenotype for this gene? Yes
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I only found 2 accessions with the dm gene, HOWEVER, both also had the d gene.
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mt, midget gene

Mutant type: Spontaneous
Phenotype: All parts of plant reduced; high sterility; in field, make very compact dwarf mounds of growth; internodes short; most flowers abort and few open, exceedingly small and prob. nonfunctional.
Notes: no fruit set in field

Phenotype Details
Phenotypic Category: Plant habit or size
Is primary phenotype for this gene? Yes

Phenotypic Category: Sterility, or any condition leading to partial or complete unfruitfulness
Is primary phenotype for this gene? No
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I wonder if this has anything ro do with dwarf multifloras not setting higher amounts of fruit; any comments? I only found 1 accession and it had both the mt midget gene and the d dwarf gene.
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mnt, the miniature gene

Mutant type: Spontaneous
Phenotype: All parts of plant reduced; high sterility; in field, make very compact dwarf mounds of growth; internodes short; most flowers abort and few open, exceedingly small and prob. nonfunctional.
Notes: no fruit set in field

Phenotype Details
Phenotypic Category: Plant habit or size
Is primary phenotype for this gene? Yes

Phenotypic Category: Sterility, or any condition leading to partial or complete unfruitfulness
Is primary phenotype for this gene? No
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I only found one accession with the miniature gene, it also had the d dwarf gene!
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br, brachytic gene

Mutant type: Spontaneous
Phenotype: Internodes shortened, resulting in low stature and compact growth habit; by the third-leaf stage, br plants are only half as tall as +; differs from dwarf (d) in having normal-colored, non-rugose foliage, and normal instead of sessile and compact leaf segments.
Notes: From cv. Rouge Nain Hative

Phenotype Details
Phenotypic Category: Plant habit or size
Is primary phenotype for this gene? Yes
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Of 9 br accessions, ONE also had the d dwarf gene.
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dd, the double dwarf gene

Synonym of Allele: d^xx
Mutant type: Spontaneous
Phenotype: Extremely retarded and highly modified dwarf.
Notes: Hybrid origin.

Phenotype Details
Phenotypic Category: Leaf form or size
Is primary phenotype for this gene? No

Phenotypic Category: Plant habit or size
Is primary phenotype for this gene? Yes
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Only one accession, and it's not allelic with d.
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dpy, the dumpy gene, and its alleles

Mutant type: Spontaneous
Phenotype: Leaves like those of d: x but internodes longer; Leaves greatly condensed, rugose, dark green; internodes somewhat foreshortened
Notes: Hybrid origin.

Allele: prov2
Allele name: provisional 2
Synonym of Allele: dpy
Mutant type: Chemical
Phenotype: Leaves like those of d: x but internodes longer.
Notes: Hybrid origin. Provisional allele symbol

Allele: prov3
Allele name: provisional 3
Synonym of Allele: dpy
Mutant type: Spontaneous
Phenotype: Leaves like those of d: x but internodes longer.
Notes: Hybrid origin. Provisional allele symbol

Phenotype Details
Phenotypic Category: Leaf form or size
Is primary phenotype for this gene? No

Phenotypic Category: Plant habit or size
Is primary phenotype for this gene? Yes
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I haven't grown dumpy in about 10 years... here it is:

More if I find some! Hope this helps!

[jmsieglaff]

Update on my 19xF2. Put my shortest 3 plants of the 8 I potted up into their final planter for basement under the lights winter growing. Shortest is definitely a micro about 4" now. Middle I believe is a micro at about 5" and is multiflora! The 3rd is a bit taller than the middle, not sure about flower types yet. The 5 disposed plants were definitely dwarf but already 7-9" by comparison. Sad to toss them but I don't have a heated greenhouse! I'll keep posting updates. I love being able to grow a few tomato plants in the winter!

[jmsieglaff]

An update to the 3 19xF2 plants. Left is smallest, weakly multiflora, middle is a bit taller, very bushy and exhibiting strong multiflora. The right is about as tall as the middle plant but far less bushy and weakly or not multiflora. I'm thinking I'll terminate the growth tip or cull the plant. I'm leaning toward terminating growth tip just so we can get tomatoes from it. The middle plant has set a few tiny fruit, I am buzzing plants daily. Thoughts?

[jmsieglaff]

A view of the middle plant flowers, you'll also get an idea of how bushy it is.

[KarenO]

This is a beautiful thing. I need to get my lights out..
I have some potato leaf black micro seeds sent to me by DF that are calling my name...
KarenO

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by jmsieglaff

An update to the 3 19xF2 plants. Left is smallest, weakly multiflora, middle is a bit taller, very bushy and exhibiting strong multiflora. The right is about as tall as the middle plant but far less bushy and weakly or not multiflora. I'm thinking I'll terminate the growth tip or cull the plant. I'm leaning toward terminating growth tip just so we can get tomatoes from it. The middle plant has set a few tiny fruit, I am buzzing plants daily. Thoughts?

I have lots of thoughts. First, they look great. I hope you get lucky and they turn out tremendous.

Beyond that, my thoughts are about how much of a different perspective I have now about these dwarf/micro multifloras than I had 10 months ago when I started this thread. The main thing I have learned is how many of my initial ideas and ‘understandings’ about these crosses and how they would segregate and stabilize were wrong

I should have given the thread a different title. Instead of “Interested in Growing a Multiflora Dwarf” it should have been “Interested in Looking for a Multiflora Dwarf”. I probably made it sound like it would only be a matter of growing several multiflora dwarf (or micro) plants and picking the best to advance. I imagine that with those expectations, many started a dozen plants expecting to grow out 5 or 6 and find a winner. They were likely disappointed.

If I were to do it again knowing what I know now, I would emphasize that anyone growing these should start LOTS of plants and cull most of them hoping to find something worth keeping. Here are some of the ways my thoughts have changed over the last 10 months.

What I thought then: I thought that if the F2 was multiflora, that trait would be fixed going forward in the F3s and beyond. I assumed there was a single recessive gene controlling the multiflora trait.

What I think now: It appears that the multiflora trait is not necessarily fixed just because it manifested in the F2. Apparently not all the F3s come multiflora. Several have reported, and I have seen, non-multiflora F3s from seeds that came from a multiflora plant. I don’t know enough about genetics yet to say why and I choose to not guess a second time. I’m taking some classes this winter. Perhaps I’ll know enough to say by summer.

What I thought then: I thought the F3s would resemble the F2s much more closely than most of them do. The only crosses I had had anything to do previously were between plants that shared most traits. The offspring were usually very similar to either or both parents and stabilized relatively quickly.

What I think now: These crosses between parents that are so extremely different will be much more difficult to stabilize than I originally assumed. A much higher percentage of the F3s aren’t worth growing because of growth habit than I anticipated. Had I known how much they would still differentiate, I would have sent out more seeds and put more emphasis on starting lots of plants and culling heavily. (I obviously knew the parents were very different, I just didn’t realize how much variation that would create in the offspring.)

What I thought then: Like the multiflora trait, I thought that once a plant came micro its offspring would keep that trait. I have always felt that there is a definite ‘dwarf’ gene that is fixed once manifest. I have also felt there were possibly several other genes involved in making a micro. However, I did assume that once one was micro, its offspring would all me micro.

What I think now: I’m convinced the dwarf gene acts like I thought it would and stabilizes easily. I am even more convinced that there are multiple genes involved in making the micros. I also don’t think the micro is necessarily fixed once a plant shows micro.

Additional observations/conclusions I’ve come to:

For crosses between the micro multiflora and indeterminates, I expected 25% of the F2 would be dwarf and 25% of those would be micro. That seems to hold true in most cases. However, there are some crosses in which those ratios were not even close (at least with the limited trials I have done). In the F2s of some crosses the percentage that show dwarf/micro appears to be 10% or less. Dwarfs were difficult to find and micros were nearly non-existent.

James, the cross you are working with (19X - Ambrosia Orange) is one of those in which I found very few dwarfs and almost no micros.

There is a lot more segregation in the F3s and F4s than I expected. As I noted above, there is more culling needed than I anticipated. That tells me there are lots of weird genes floating around waiting to manifest. I have even found a few F3s and F4s that stay way tiny (6”-8”) and are healthy, good-looking plants, but have not produced a single blossom. Had they been the one micro I chose to grow, I would have sure been disappointed.

My current notions may still be wrong, but I think they are more accurate than assumptions I made 10 months ago.

Next time you’ll know better than to ask my thoughts….

For what it’s worth, I am going to have a bunch of different F3s available soon – yellow, black, stripes (hopefully) and others, if anyone has any interest in trying them.

[Barb_FL]

Dan - I had one of those healthy micro plants that never put out a blossom or anything close to a bud / pre-bud. I finally tossed it.

OTOH - I have a multiflora dwarf that has hundreds of tomatoes and flowers with the flowers easily setting fruit. It's a 21x something (will go look tomorrow). I will try to get another picture. Tomotoes are red and cherry size. Not a small cherry but not a large one either.

[jmsieglaff]

Dan, great observations and insights, thanks a lot for taking the time to post. You've grown a ton of these things so your observations are very valuable as most of us are only growing a handful. My plan is to grow these over the winter, if something is worth saving I'll grow some F3 plants in 2017 and most certainly will do another round of F2s for 2017 growing.

[jmsieglaff]

Lots of little tomatoes coming on the first multiflora cluster and another two more multiflora clusters are starting to open. This is on the middle plant--13" tall and may nip the top. Topped the right plant at 13", only 1 small flower cluster so far but another is set to open. Left plant is at 9", and like the middle plant rather bushy, more flower clusters than right plant but I wouldn't call it multiflora. Still will be a while but can't wait to taste them!