Breeding for Semi-Determinate Growth Habit - Page 2

travis · January 24, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by maf

Each time an inflorescence forms that stem terminates and growth continues from a secondary stem. Even in indeterminate growth plants this is the pattern. It just looks like the main stem is continuing to grow when in fact it is a lateral shoot.

Sorry, but I don't buy that.

The primary shoot, meristem, main stem, whatever you wish to call it is a single continuous growth whereby the primary shoot emerges as an extension from the leaf axial immediately above (rather than within) the most recent leaf node.

I know it explains it a bit differently in the paper linked at the top of this thread wherein it calls the primary extensions from the leaf axial "side shoots." However, my understanding of a side shoot (lateral shoot) is the new "clone" that emerges from the crotch of the leaf node somewhat after the primary shoot has emerged and grown upward as the meristem.

These side shoots or lateral shoots, which I am calling clones, are sometimes referred to as "suckers" and are removed. If one removes all of the "suckers" or lateral shoots, the vine is left as a single, primary cordon comprised of internode extensions formed by the emergence of new upward growth from each ascending leaf axial.

If the "clone" shoots (aka, suckers) that emerge from the crotch of the leaf nodes are left to grow, each will replicate the primary stem in terms of initial internode spacing WITHOUT inflorescences, followed by the identical internode spacing pattern WITH inflorescences.

That is, if the primary stem took 4 internodes to begin producing flowers, so with each side shoot (lateral shoot). If the primary stem took 5 internodes to begin flowering, so will each side shoot. If the primary stem produces flowers every second internode, so will the side shoots AFTER they first repeat the series of internode growth without inflorescences. Et cetera. That is why I'm calling them "clone" side shoots.

In a greenhouse, a true indeterminate with all side shoots pruned off, will form a single series of internodes, with new forward growth emerging from the most upward leaf axial, continuously, and without termination.

If a determinate were grown the same way, under greenhouse culture, with all side shoots (clones) trimmed off, the primary stem would soon terminate in a terminus inflorescence emerging from the most upward leaf axial of the primary stem, and just above the most recent inflorescence that emerged from the internode space immediately below the leaf axial. [See the top photo that I posted]

If a determinate tomato plant is trimmed of all side shoot growth that emerges from the crotch of the leaf nodes, and the remaining primary stem terminates in an inflorescence, there is no way for the plant to produce more flowers or fruit UNLESS 1) an aberrant growth emerges from the end of a flower cluster, or 2) if adventitious side shoot growth were to emerge from lower down the primary stem where previously the side shoot (clone) growth had been removed ... or possibly from the root crown itself.

This is how I understand it. I may not be using the correct terminology, as I was not a biology or horticultural major, and have only learned as I go. Mostly from observation.

travis · January 24, 2015

However, all crappola aside, it would be a more interesting discussion if we were to return to the "breeding for semi-determinate" tomatoes idea since it is a very worthy idea.

If we were to cross modern, disease resistant/heat tolerant determinates with old style, heirloom and heritage type tomatoes, then select for semi-determinate growth patterns, I believe we will be rewarded with some fine tomato varieties.

I know of several working lines that began as modern disease/heat tolerant determinates x heirloom or heritage tomato varieties that are beginning to show great promise. I wish I could post photographs of several of the different fruit types I'm growing from these lines, but I have not yet figured out how to post pictures from my cell phone to my photobucket or directly to this Web site.

maf · January 24, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by travis

However, all crappola aside, it would be a more interesting discussion if we were to return to the "breeding for semi-determinate" tomatoes idea since it is a very worthy idea.

If we were to cross modern, disease resistant/heat tolerant determinates with old style, heirloom and heritage type tomatoes, then select for semi-determinate growth patterns, I believe we will be rewarded with some fine tomato varieties.

I agree. However for anyone interested in tomato branching patterns I will post a link, but not participate in any more discussion on whether stems terminate or not.

http://www-plb.ucdavis.edu/labs/rost...branching.html

bower · January 24, 2015

I'm certainly game to keep talking about breeding for semi-determinate habit, and I'm resolved to keep better data on the inflorescence patterns as well this time, in crosses involving determinate as well as semideterminate parents.

This past year I only kept written data of the number of nodes before the first inflorescence - I was hoping to be able to use this to identify determinates in an F2 population early on - which was a failed hope. Two determinates I grew indoors in the winter (Jagodka and Red Dwarf) both had their first inflorescence at the 7th node. None of my F2's of Black Cherry X Napoli a Fiaschetto had a flower before the 9th node. They were a leggy bunch of seedlings and I couldn't pick out the determinate habit until they were planted out and allowed to grow normally.. so if environment is a factor I probably didn't help by keeping them in beer cups rather late!

This year I have to decide what F2's to give space in the greenhouse, from the crosses with Zolotoe Serdtse, and how many I must grow to get one semi-det at least...

Dutch · January 24, 2015

Thanks Bower, I am still interested in a 97L97 X Zolotoe Serdtse cross. So if you or Chris successful do this cross, I would like to help with grew outs.
Dutch

bower · January 24, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch

Thanks Bower, I am still interested in a 97L97 X Zolotoe Serdtse cross. So if you or Chris successful do this cross, I would like to help with grew outs.
Dutch

Sure thing, Dutch. I haven't grown 97L97 yet. I have lots of seeds of ZS if anyone else is interested in growing it for breeding or other purpose.

Zolotoe Serdtse is also a Beta orange, semi-determinate, cold tolerant and super productive. I made crosses with ZS the mother plant, and Black Early, Indian Stripe, and Danko (det) pollen donors. I grew those F1's in 2014 and got the F2 seeds. The F1 crosses with BE and IS were giant sturdy plants with very few fruit per yard and ton weight of foliage/stems. Only 1/4 determinate can be expected in F2, and according to the research that Chris posted, only 1/4 of those determinate plants would be sdt/sdt and semi-determinate - 1/16 overall. The ZS X Danko F2 should be 1/4 semi-determinate since all are sp/sp.

I also made a cross between the F1 (ZS X Black Early) and an F2 black fruited determinate plant of (Napoli Fiaschetto X Black Cherry). Hoping to simplify or reduce number of plants to get a semi-determinate black fruited line, thinking 1/2 will be black, 1/2 will be determinate.. but the cherry gene is dominant so I will not see fruit size in the next generation. As for the semi-determinate habit... not sure now, I may or may not have made the odds worse.

I did a little scouting last night for other semi-determinates that could be useful for a breeding program - I haven't grown them myself yet so can't say, I found these with google for 'semi-determinate' 'large determinate' and 'vigorous bush' is another term used:

Super Marmande
Roma VF
Speckled Roman
Ardwyna
Rio Grande

I have seed for Speckled Roman so I'm adding that to my grow list for this year...

Dutch · January 24, 2015

Thanks Bower, I got six seeds of 97L97 from Darrel (Fusion_Power) in 2012 and successfully grew three plants in 2013 in which the plant and fruit seem to be true to type, dark orange oval fruit on determinate plants. These babies don't seem to have much resistance to late blight at all. They were the first to get hit and they went down fast. I did save quite a bit of fruit before they got hit. I grew two plants of 97L97 in 2014 to do crosses with Zolotoe Serdtse.

I missed the window and didn’t get the crosses done. It’s a good thing I didn’t do them because the (2014) 97L97 tomatoes were round instead of oval, still orange but not as deep of orange as in 2013 and they had a fair of resistance to late blight. The bad boy was probable a single Lemon Boy who didn’t make it into the garden in 2013 and was hanging around not too far away. I saved the seeds from these two (2014) 97L97 anyways and have them marked as a possible Lemon Boy cross.

In (2013) I saved the bottom two fruits from each the three plants separately. I have a zip lock bag (one bag) in front of my with three labels, 97l97 batch #1, 97L97 batch #2, and 97L97 batch #3. Evidently after I dried each batch on their separate plates, then put them all in one zip lock bag and put all three labels on the bag. I don’t remember why I did this. Now there is no telling how many of the six fruits got crossed or which are from which plant. I may grow out a couple dozen of the 2013 seeds, this year (2015) and see if I get the dark oval fruit (97L97) on any of them.
Dutch

P.S. Those Zolotoe Serdtse sure are strange. Loads of fruit then you think it’s done, and then it goes nuts and produces loads of fruit again.

bower · January 24, 2015

Yep, Dutch, the growth habit of ZS is perfect afaict, and makes it a fruit pumping machine!

I crossed with other colours in hopes of stabilizing some different coloured/shaped fruiters with the same crazy fruit production, and cold tolerance, it's impressive. Long keeping fruit too.

What did you think of the fruit on 97L97? Is it a pumper too? I actually wondered whether ZS may have been bred out of the same line, since it has the Beta-orange gene for carotene (F1 fruit are orange-red, not red, so is positive for Beta).

Dutch · January 24, 2015

Thanks for quick reply Bower, 97L97 is not nearly as productive and it's once and done. I was looking to combine the resistance and output of ZS with the insane levels of carotene of 97L97.
Dutch

bower · January 24, 2015

Just a note, I was double checking my list of semi-determinate varieties and Speckled Roman is not, it is listed as indeterminate pretty much everywhere.

Fusion_power · January 25, 2015

Don't trust the other descriptions either. Three of them are just long internode determinants.

bower · January 25, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

Don't trust the other descriptions either. Three of them are just long internode determinants.

Thanks for the heads up.. long internodes are not part of the package I'm looking for.

I also had a look at some of the F1 offerings, of which a few are described as 'semi-determinate'. Too bad it isn't easy to find the disease resistance package that would suit us the best.. VFN are not relevant here. Defiant is determinate and LB resistant... Charger has some disease resistance that might be useful. I might grow them at some point to see if they're tasty at all. If not, I'll probably stick to working with determinates that have decent fruit, and ZS or any semi-determinates I can get from the ZS crosses, unless others are found.

I finally have the correct seed for Sophie's Choice, which is one of the really small determinates supposed to be fit to eat - it would be interesting to compare the outcome of crosses between tiny dets X semidet and larger dets X semidet, with a bit of rigorous node counting from the start to get the differences between them straight....

I still haven't found seed of the truly determinate Sasha's Altai btw... last year's was obviously crossed, and I have seed of an 'indeterminate' SA now that came from West Coast Seeds... were your SA plants true determinates?

crmauch · January 29, 2015

Does anyone know the genetics of Zolotoe Serdtse? Is it a high beta-carotene variety (like 97L97)? Or does it have more 'standard' orange genetics? (I think there's at least 3 ways to get to orange tomatoes genetically, maybe 4)

The description of it intrigues me, but I'm not breeding with any orange (I will raise and save however!) tomato that I can't verify is a high beta variety.

I grew 97L97 and while I completely concur it's a once and done, I thought it was very productive.

bower · January 29, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by crmauch

Does anyone know the genetics of Zolotoe Serdtse? Is it a high beta-carotene variety (like 97L97)? Or does it have more 'standard' orange genetics? (I think there's at least 3 ways to get to orange tomatoes genetically, maybe 4)

The description of it intrigues me, but I'm not breeding with any orange (I will raise and save however!) tomato that I can't verify is a high beta variety.

I grew 97L97 and while I completely concur it's a once and one, I thought it was very productive.

My Zolotoe Serdtse X F1's had orange-red fruit, not red. This is what you'd expect of a Beta cross F1. If ZS had the tangerine orange gene, the F1 would be red.
I grew ZS at the same time as the F1's, and their fruit were all very similar to ZS - firm and bright orange - but slowly turning a shade redder at full ripe - definitely not a plain red.

bower · April 5, 2015

Reading online today, I found two more research papers of interest to the topic of breeding for semi-determinate growth habit.

This is an older one (2003), which describes SP as a family of at least 6 genes in tomato:
http://link.springer.com/article/10....6451.11#page-1
I couldn't find a copy of the full text.

This new research published April 1 2015 in the Journal of Plant Physiology is more informative and relevant:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...76161715000061
Full text could be read here:
http://www.academia.edu/11262765/Sem..._lycopersicum_

The CETS family (SP) genes is now described as having 13 member genes on at least 4 different chromosomes (2,3,5 and 9).
Two of these genes are described as producing 'semi-determinate' growth habit.

"Solanum pennellii alleles of SP5G (SP5E) or SP9D in the sp/sp background
lead to a variation in determinate growth habit characterized by elongated internodes,greater number of nodes between successive inﬂorescences,and delayed termination of the top-most sympodium(Fridmanetal.,2002;Jonesetal.,2007).This growth habit has been termed“semi-determinate”(Fridmanetal.,2002;Carmel-Gorenetal.,2003),but it has never been fully characterized."

However the authors are investigating a different gene on Chromosome 1, not belonging to the (described) SP family, which confers water use efficiency and also produces a semi-determinate growth habit.

Fascinating work!

I think Travis will appreciate the conclusions.

January 24, 2015	#20
Dutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b Posts: 1,831	Thanks Bower, I am still interested in a 97L97 X Zolotoe Serdtse cross. So if you or Chris successful do this cross, I would like to help with grew outs. Dutch __________________ "Discretion is the better part of valor" Charles Churchill The intuitive mind is a gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. But we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. (paraphrased) Albert Einstein I come from a long line of sod busters, spanning back several centuries.

January 24, 2015	#22
Dutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b Posts: 1,831	Thanks Bower, I got six seeds of 97L97 from Darrel (Fusion_Power) in 2012 and successfully grew three plants in 2013 in which the plant and fruit seem to be true to type, dark orange oval fruit on determinate plants. These babies don't seem to have much resistance to late blight at all. They were the first to get hit and they went down fast. I did save quite a bit of fruit before they got hit. I grew two plants of 97L97 in 2014 to do crosses with Zolotoe Serdtse. I missed the window and didn’t get the crosses done. It’s a good thing I didn’t do them because the (2014) 97L97 tomatoes were round instead of oval, still orange but not as deep of orange as in 2013 and they had a fair of resistance to late blight. The bad boy was probable a single Lemon Boy who didn’t make it into the garden in 2013 and was hanging around not too far away. I saved the seeds from these two (2014) 97L97 anyways and have them marked as a possible Lemon Boy cross. In (2013) I saved the bottom two fruits from each the three plants separately. I have a zip lock bag (one bag) in front of my with three labels, 97l97 batch #1, 97L97 batch #2, and 97L97 batch #3. Evidently after I dried each batch on their separate plates, then put them all in one zip lock bag and put all three labels on the bag. I don’t remember why I did this. Now there is no telling how many of the six fruits got crossed or which are from which plant. I may grow out a couple dozen of the 2013 seeds, this year (2015) and see if I get the dark oval fruit (97L97) on any of them. Dutch P.S. Those Zolotoe Serdtse sure are strange. Loads of fruit then you think it’s done, and then it goes nuts and produces loads of fruit again. __________________ "Discretion is the better part of valor" Charles Churchill The intuitive mind is a gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. But we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. (paraphrased) Albert Einstein I come from a long line of sod busters, spanning back several centuries. Last edited by Dutch; January 24, 2015 at 05:37 PM.

January 24, 2015	#24
Dutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b Posts: 1,831	Thanks for quick reply Bower, 97L97 is not nearly as productive and it's once and done. I was looking to combine the resistance and output of ZS with the insane levels of carotene of 97L97. Dutch __________________ "Discretion is the better part of valor" Charles Churchill The intuitive mind is a gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. But we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. (paraphrased) Albert Einstein I come from a long line of sod busters, spanning back several centuries. Last edited by Dutch; January 24, 2015 at 06:02 PM.

January 29, 2015	#28
crmauch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: Honey Brook, PA Zone 6b Posts: 399	Zolotoe Serdtse Does anyone know the genetics of Zolotoe Serdtse? Is it a high beta-carotene variety (like 97L97)? Or does it have more 'standard' orange genetics? (I think there's at least 3 ways to get to orange tomatoes genetically, maybe 4) The description of it intrigues me, but I'm not breeding with any orange (I will raise and save however!) tomato that I can't verify is a high beta variety. I grew 97L97 and while I completely concur it's a once and done, I thought it was very productive. Last edited by crmauch; January 30, 2015 at 04:05 PM. Reason: typo

January 24, 2015	#17
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	However, all crappola aside, it would be a more interesting discussion if we were to return to the "breeding for semi-determinate" tomatoes idea since it is a very worthy idea. If we were to cross modern, disease resistant/heat tolerant determinates with old style, heirloom and heritage type tomatoes, then select for semi-determinate growth patterns, I believe we will be rewarded with some fine tomato varieties. I know of several working lines that began as modern disease/heat tolerant determinates x heirloom or heritage tomato varieties that are beginning to show great promise. I wish I could post photographs of several of the different fruit types I'm growing from these lines, but I have not yet figured out how to post pictures from my cell phone to my photobucket or directly to this Web site.

January 24, 2015	#19
bower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 6,794	I'm certainly game to keep talking about breeding for semi-determinate habit, and I'm resolved to keep better data on the inflorescence patterns as well this time, in crosses involving determinate as well as semideterminate parents. This past year I only kept written data of the number of nodes before the first inflorescence - I was hoping to be able to use this to identify determinates in an F2 population early on - which was a failed hope. Two determinates I grew indoors in the winter (Jagodka and Red Dwarf) both had their first inflorescence at the 7th node. None of my F2's of Black Cherry X Napoli a Fiaschetto had a flower before the 9th node. They were a leggy bunch of seedlings and I couldn't pick out the determinate habit until they were planted out and allowed to grow normally.. so if environment is a factor I probably didn't help by keeping them in beer cups rather late! This year I have to decide what F2's to give space in the greenhouse, from the crosses with Zolotoe Serdtse, and how many I must grow to get one semi-det at least...

January 25, 2015	#26
Fusion_power Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,250	Don't trust the other descriptions either. Three of them are just long internode determinants.

April 5, 2015	#30
bower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 6,794	Reading online today, I found two more research papers of interest to the topic of breeding for semi-determinate growth habit. This is an older one (2003), which describes SP as a family of at least 6 genes in tomato: http://link.springer.com/article/10....6451.11#page-1 I couldn't find a copy of the full text. This new research published April 1 2015 in the Journal of Plant Physiology is more informative and relevant: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...76161715000061 Full text could be read here: http://www.academia.edu/11262765/Sem..._lycopersicum_ The CETS family (SP) genes is now described as having 13 member genes on at least 4 different chromosomes (2,3,5 and 9). Two of these genes are described as producing 'semi-determinate' growth habit. "Solanum pennellii alleles of SP5G (SP5E) or SP9D in the sp/sp background lead to a variation in determinate growth habit characterized by elongated internodes,greater number of nodes between successive inﬂorescences,and delayed termination of the top-most sympodium(Fridmanetal.,2002;Jonesetal.,2007).This growth habit has been termed“semi-determinate”(Fridmanetal.,2002;Carmel-Gorenetal.,2003),but it has never been fully characterized." However the authors are investigating a different gene on Chromosome 1, not belonging to the (described) SP family, which confers water use efficiency and also produces a semi-determinate growth habit. Fascinating work! I think Travis will appreciate the conclusions.