Micro-tomato crosses

[RobinB]

I'd love to see some photos of the plants from these. How tall are they turning out to be? If you guys need somebody to help grow some out next season (or even starting now for inside during the Fall/Winter) let me know!

[ChrisK]

Hi Robin. From this cross the three determinates I got are topping out at about 13" tall in a 6" pot. The indeterminates will be more like the dwarf project size. I am going to advance each type for different uses.

Some of the indeterminates will also give determinates in the next generation. I'd love to get a det. on that striped!

Originally Posted by RobinB

I'd love to see some photos of the plants from these. How tall are they turning out to be? If you guys need somebody to help grow some out next season (or even starting now for inside during the Fall/Winter) let me know!

[Pappi]

Great crosses, gives me ideas for my Mother and Aunt's gardens.

[tlintx]

I was wondering, what's the difference between a "dwarf" and a "micro-dwarf"? Dwarf is pretty well defined by the Dwarf Project... are micro-dwarfs dwarfs under 18", or is there something else distinctive about them? Or can they be just determinates under 18", without the rugose leaves and thick stem, etc., of a dwarf?

[sprtsguy76]

I'm not an expert on the subject nor have grown micro dwarfs until this year before but yes they seem to stay at or under a certain length. 14" or less sounds about right? ?If interested stay tuned this fall/winter I will distribute seeds to those interested in my crosses.

Hopefully I can grow all my f1's out this fall so the micro dwarf hunt can commence next season!

Damon

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[tlintx]

Let me see if I have ths straight!

Dwarfs have short internodes, rugose foliage, and are short overall, less than five feet.
Determinates set a bunch of fruit at a time, usually only once or twice.

A dwarf can be a determinate, but not all determinates are dwarfs.
Determinates are usually small plants.

"Micro-dwarf" means any tomato plant under 18" to 14". Which might be determinate or a dwarf or both or neither.

Examples:
Tiny Tim
Red Robin
Mohamed
Micro Tom
Micro Gemma
Chibikko
Lollipop


Tl

[nctomatoman]

Here is how I look at the three main tomato classes:

Indeterminate - infinite upward/outward growth, reaching 8 feet or more by the killing frost, suckers become nearly as long as the central leader; potato or regular leaf foliage, non-crinkled (rugose), high foliage to fruit ratio. Most tomato varieties are indeterminate - examples are Better Boy or Cherokee Purple

Determinate - look identical to indeterminate varieties as seedlings and during initial growth, but flowers set at branch ends once vertical growth stops (so-called self topping characteristic first seen with Cooper's Special in the early 1920s), tend to have a concentrated fruit set - potato or regular leaf foliage, non-crinkled (rugose), high fruit to foliage ratio. Examples are Sophie's Choice, Taxi, Southern Night, Roma

Dwarf - Look distinct as seedlings, being more squat, thicker central stem, act as very slowly vertically growing indeterminate varieties, topping out at 3-5 feet, depending upon the exact nature (determinate or indeterminate - not easy to distinguish in some cases, and not all that important to know, really) - can be potato or regular leaf, but the foliage is a very dark green, nearly bluish green, and puckered/wrinkled (rugose), high foliage to fruit ratio. Been known since the mid 1800s, best known older ones are Dwarf Champion, Golden Dwarf Champion, New Big Dwarf; more recent one is Lime Green Salad, and the new creations from the Dwarf Project, such as Rosella Purple and Summertime Green.

Micro Dwarf varieties are very short growing Dwarfs, tend to be one foot or less in eventual height, and have the thick central stem and rugose foliage of Dwarfs.

[ChrisK]

What Craig said!

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

Here is how I look at the three main tomato classes:

Indeterminate - infinite upward/outward growth, reaching 8 feet or more by the killing frost, suckers become nearly as long as the central leader; potato or regular leaf foliage, non-crinkled (rugose), high foliage to fruit ratio. Most tomato varieties are indeterminate - examples are Better Boy or Cherokee Purple

Determinate - look identical to indeterminate varieties as seedlings and during initial growth, but flowers set at branch ends once vertical growth stops (so-called self topping characteristic first seen with Cooper's Special in the early 1920s), tend to have a concentrated fruit set - potato or regular leaf foliage, non-crinkled (rugose), high fruit to foliage ratio. Examples are Sophie's Choice, Taxi, Southern Night, Roma

Dwarf - Look distinct as seedlings, being more squat, thicker central stem, act as very slowly vertically growing indeterminate varieties, topping out at 3-5 feet, depending upon the exact nature (determinate or indeterminate - not easy to distinguish in some cases, and not all that important to know, really) - can be potato or regular leaf, but the foliage is a very dark green, nearly bluish green, and puckered/wrinkled (rugose), high foliage to fruit ratio. Been known since the mid 1800s, best known older ones are Dwarf Champion, Golden Dwarf Champion, New Big Dwarf; more recent one is Lime Green Salad, and the new creations from the Dwarf Project, such as Rosella Purple and Summertime Green.

Micro Dwarf varieties are very short growing Dwarfs, tend to be one foot or less in eventual height, and have the thick central stem and rugose foliage of Dwarfs.

[sprtsguy76]

Perfect! Thanks Craig!

Now I have noticed a distinct differences between my two Tiny Tims. One seem to fit the bill well, squat, nice thick central stem rugose foliage and about 8-9 inches tall. The other one however is less squat a bit more open growth habit and at a height of about 14-16 inches. The fruit trusses seem to be a bit more uniform as well. When I realized this I was worried so I made sure I went back to the Tiny Tim that seemed right and made duplicate crosses that I had made to the not so Tiny Tim one, if that makes sense. I sure hope I get ripe fruit in time to grow some f1's out in the fall!!!

Damon

[tlintx]

Yes, thank you! That clears up my confusion completely. Well, on this subject, anyway.

Are there any indeterminate micro-dwarfs? Is such a thing possible? Probably wouldn't stay less than a foot tall over a long growing season?

I have got to learn how to cross-pollinate. Those little anthers are so small and my fingers are so clumsy!

Originally Posted by sprtsguy76

Now I have noticed a distinct differences between my two Tiny Tims. One seem to fit the bill well, squat, nice thick central stem rugose foliage and about 8-9 inches tall. The other one however is less squat a bit more open growth habit and at a height of about 14-16 inches. The fruit trusses seem to be a bit more uniform as well. When I realized this I was worried so I made sure I went back to the Tiny Tim that seemed right and made duplicate crosses that I had made to the not so Tiny Tim one, if that makes sense. I sure hope I get ripe fruit in time to grow some f1's out in the fall!!!

From what I've read, there can be differences in size in the dwarfs based on growing conditions. Maybe one gets a little more sunlight than the other?

Clumsy fingers crossed for you!!!

[ChrisK]

Those from my crosses with an indeterminate parent (e.g. Chibikko x Green Zebra) give a mix of what I would call dwarf and micro. The traits are controlled by different genes.

The micros are the determinates and top out at 12-13" as mentioned. The indeterminates from the same cross are more like the dwarfs in that they keep growing but stay smaller in stature. They are not going to be good windowsill plants.

Originally Posted by tlintx

Are there any indeterminate micro-dwarfs? Is such a thing possible? Probably wouldn't stay less than a foot tall over a long growing season?

[tlintx]

Would it be possible, given tomato genetics, to select for the smallest possible indeterminates and have it carry through?

[sprtsguy76]

No I dont think so. I don't know of any micro indeterminates dwarfs. As stated before I think the closest thing to that would be the dwarfs that come out of these crosses. But that is not the objective of this particular project. The cross hemisphere dwarf project has many indeterminate dwarfes. Have you check out that forum?

Damon

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[tlintx]

Yes, but they are winding down. Just a couple of months too late for me to join!

I'm trying to get a handle on the goals here before I start selecting! I think it's great that there might soon be more micro dwarfs to choose from.

[ChrisK]

Goals?? Heheheh, this is still pretty ad hoc!

The seeds I sent you today are from the little plant posted above. All plants should be determinates and thus stay small. Look for interesting colors and stripes as well as good flavor!

Originally Posted by tlintx

Yes, but they are winding down. Just a couple of months too late for me to join!

I'm trying to get a handle on the goals here before I start selecting! I think it's great that there might soon be more micro dwarfs to choose from.