Livingston's Acme

[stevenkh1]

Great news! I emailed Mike on this because we've both been looking for it. So how do I and Mike go about obtaining seed sample???

Thank you so much in advance!

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by MrBig46

In the Czech gene bank have seeds Acme (y.1879) from a donor from Germany (y.1957).
Vladimír
PS.: Description of the tomato I can add

Vladimir, I understand that they were donated to the Czech gene bank in 1957 which makes them about 58 yrs old now. What I don't know, but you might, is how OFTEN the gene bank grows out varieties to keep seed stock viable.

And I ask b'c when one looks at the accessions in the US gene bank, the PC Grin, there are many accessions that are listed, but never grown out b'c they are extinct.

So two kinds of listings, one for accessions still available and other listings for accessions no longer available and the latter comprises the largest majority of listings, I've been there to read, so I know.

Carolyn

[carolyn137]

Vladimir, I understand that they were donated to the Czech gene bank in 1957 which makes them about 58 yrs old now. What I don't know, but you might, is how OFTEN the gene bank grows out varieties to keep seed stock viable.

And I ask b'c when one looks at the accessions in the US gene bank, the PC Grin, there are many accessions that are listed, but never grown out b'c they are extinct.

So two kinds of listings, one for accessions still available and other listings for accessions no longer available and the latter comprises the largest majority of listings, I've been there to read, so I know.

And also noting that the world record for waking up old seed was when the precursor to the USDA stations was in Cheyenne, WY was closed and all seeds moved to the new USDA station in Ames, IA and in Cheyenne the tomato seeds were stored in filing cabinets at ambient temps and when germination was assessed in IA they were able to wake up seeds, I forgot how many varieties, not many, that were 50 yo. I once had a scientific report about that which was sent to me by someone at the Fort Collins, CO backup USDA storage facility but in all the moves I made somewhere that paper was lost along with some others I also lost.


Carolyn

[MrBig46]

Czech gene bank is a state organization. Every year, a large part of the fund is sown. Otherwise, it would really saved seeds would be unusable.
If state employees fulfill their duties well and should be germinating seeds Acme there
That could only say someone from a gene bank. Perhaps it would be best if someone who is well-known in the world of tomato (for example Carolyn) request mail about the seeds. There is some hope.
Vladimír

[stevenkh1]

I know a couple of master gardeners/educators at the Michigan State Extension office...that might be an option as well.

Man oh man...just knowing they are sitting there at the Czech seed bank and the possibility they could be the real deal is making my heart pound with excitement!!! I - like many others - have been looking for Acme for a long time!

I found this one at our seed bank (donated in 1955 from Rhode Island, purple stem, pink fruit) and it's the only one with this description but as Carolyn says, it's not going to be it:

http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs...lay.pl?1180274

[MrBig46]

Vladimír

[mike]

http://genbank.vurv.cz/genetic/resou.../default_a.htm

Sadly, this appears to be the same description of the "Acme" that is in the USDA's gene bank and that we've already grown out. That is, the red one and not pink.

Still, if Vladimír can request and receive a sample from the Czech seed bank and grow it out, it would be interesting. But still does not get us any closer to "Livingston's Acme."

This is where we try and follow the paper trail and see where the Czech seed bank source leads us.

[FLRedHeart]

Interesting:

3-4 oz medium ribbed, red fruit.... is this correct (translated?)?

It would be interesting to know is there is any written narrative associated with this line, if it is available.

Cheers

[mike]

And I should add that the German connection may be a bit difficult since the relationship that the Czech seed bank had in 1957 was likely with the old East Germany. Historically, where the East had an amazing seed program modeled after the famous Russian botanist Vavilov, the West Germany did not. And from what I understand, the merger between the two countries in about 1990 greatly affected their program with Bonn "winning" control.

Not trying to be discouraging, but since (1) the 'Acme' in the Czech seed bank is ribbed, smallish and red, and (2) the likelihood of finding paperwork in Germany directly attributing a variety still held in their care and called "Acme" to A. W. Livingston is relatively small.

[mike]

Germany has two accessions. One looks like it matches the 'Acme' sent to the Czech seed bank - Accession No. LYC 1333 (http://gbis.ipk-gatersleben.de/GBIS_...toScroll=0,267). It is red.

The other accession is number LYC 291, is listed as being added the same year as LYC 1333, but there is no descriptive information. Both are documentary dead-ends (at least online) . . . the country of origin is listed as unknown.

And after following this path, I am having a déjà vu moment . . . I am pretty sure I have been down this particular rabbit hole many years ago . . .

[stevenkh1]

Mike, I'm looking at the 1891 Livingston's catalog and it describes "Early Acme":

"...fruit of medium size, form perfect, round, slightly depressed at the ends, very smooth, color a glossy dark red with a sort of purplish tinge..."

Is it possible the seed banks didn't grow it out until it was fully ripe? (of course I am assuming the purplish tinge occurs when it's fully ripe).

I've read other bulletins during that time period when Acme was described as "glossy red".

Or did Livingston have two Acmes: Acme and Early Acme?

[stevenkh1]

It just blows my mind that Acme was one of the most popular early market varieties until the 1920s and sold up until 1945...and as popular as this tomato was, there is NO seed packets or seeds anywhere in the world. How can this be?

There were millions upon millions of these tomatoes...and not ONE human being saved it? And the irony is, we saved every type of car and motorcycle - including ones of a kind...

[stevenkh1]

Just reading in Rolf's comments in the 1893 Florida Bulletin, he writes Stone was being passed off as Acme. If that's the case, then that might explain the slightly ribbed and red fruit.

[mike]

Originally Posted by stevenkh1

It just blows my mind that Acme was one of the most popular early market varieties until the 1920s and sold up until 1945...and as popular as this tomato was, there is NO seed packets or seeds anywhere in the world. How can this be?

There were millions upon millions of these tomatoes...and not ONE human being saved it? And the irony is, we saved every type of car and motorcycle - including ones of a kind...

This is what led me to the work, the mission, that I established for the Victory Seed Company. Although the preservation work is personally satisfying, and I feel critically important, there are so many varieties (thousands) that simply have disappeared over the decades, for whatever reason, and are presumably extinct. I too find this very sad.

[mike]

I thought this might be of interest . . . Since Livingston catalogs are not only pretty rare, when they do pop up for sale, the cost usually keeps them out of reach. However, here is a pretty amazing collection folks can down for free!!!

https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Livingston+Seed+Comp any%22