how to build soil for taste of the produce

[Lindalana]

oh yes, of course, I am not talking about traditional NPK testing. It is more about what is avail for plants in the soil I am interested.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Hermitian

If you have deficiencies, then certainly don't add more than what the plant(s) need per season. The "levels" in a classic soil report are way over-board for most situations.

Agreed. That's where the Haney test is so useful for organic and mostly organic gardeners.

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Agreed. That's where the Haney test is so useful for organic and mostly organic gardeners.

YES. It is very helpful in determining N-P-K levels. Do you know of a reliable test for "organic" soils that gives profiles of minor and micronutrients? I'm especially interested in measures of viable metallic elements.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Hermitian

YES. It is very helpful in determining N-P-K levels. Do you know of a reliable test for "organic" soils that gives profiles of minor and micronutrients? I'm especially interested in measures of viable metallic elements.

Well the Haney test isn't just for NPK. It analyzes for nitrate, ammonia, phosphate, and minerals including aluminum, iron, phosphorus, calcium, magnesium, and sodium in addition to the carbon nitrogen ratio as well as the microbial activity indicator. That easily covers the vast majority of plant nutrients. Not saying it is perfect nor am I saying it analyses everything, but it is a big improvement over standard soil tests. For other things, the answer is no. I don't know of any soil tests available to the public that test for every micro-nutrient, or mineral. There may be labs that can do it for you? Not sure actually. I can ask my local soil scientist I consult if you wish?

[Hermitian]

Some reputable labs have enhanced the Haney test. They check for soluble Fe, Ca, Mg, Al, and Na. Everything else you listed adds up either in NPK or the C/N ratio, the latter being important in any agricultural or garden soil. As for Al and Na, these detract from soil health and we hope not to find them in significant quantities.

What is missing from the Haney test, modified or otherwise, is a check for metallic elements (other than Fe, K, Mg) that are viable for plants, including: cobalt, copper, manganese, molybdenum, and zinc.

The problem with sending organic soil samples to many labs is that they will simply put the sample in a spectrometer and report on percent of atomic weight present. This tells us nothing about whether the element is in an ionic or chelated form that plants could uptake.

I am somewhat of a soil scientist -- I have passed the certification test and have taught courses to students to pass it as well. Understand that in a previous career I sought out many tests that my college students in math and sciences were gearing up for just so that I could do them justice. So, by no means am I a soil science expert. I also have a lab here in CA that will perform the above test upon request and suitable payment. However, I am wondering out loud to you and other agriculturists if there is some "named" test that accomplishes the result I've described above. Knowing this would aid others to pursue the test with their local Ag lab.

[Cole_Robbie]

Whatever elements you are testing for, they are going to depend upon the bacterial/fungal life in the soil for uptake. Healthy, living soil will grow nice plants at much lower levels of NPK/micros.

This is just my own opinion, but I really think that science has a rather murky understanding of nutrient uptake of plants. We are just beginning to learn the complexity of the microscopic community of living organisms that all play key roles. That's what makes it all so intriguing and fun

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

Whatever elements you are testing for, they are going to depend upon the bacterial/fungal life in the soil for uptake.

Not the case with water-solubles -- excepting forms of nitrogen.

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

Healthy, living soil will grow nice plants at much lower levels of NPK/micros.

Water-solubles are also at very low levels in comparison to traditional "bring up the levels" fertilizing.

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

This is just my own opinion, but I really think that science has a rather murky understanding of nutrient uptake of plants.

ChrisK would probably differ with you.

[drew51]

Originally Posted by Hermitian

What is missing from the Haney test, modified or otherwise, is a check for metallic elements (other than Fe, K, Mg) that are viable for plants, including: cobalt, copper, manganese, molybdenum, and zinc.

Yes, this is a problem. I appear to have a manganese shortage in my soil. Diagnosed from peach leaves. My leaves look just like photos of the defiency. They could be my leaves in the photos it is such a close match. So I'm pretty sure, but as you mentioned I guess I have no way of really knowing. Well I will add manganese sulfate and see if the leaves clear up.

[tnkrer]

So the horse poop has been sitting on the bed under 3-4 feet of snow all winter. I just went and moved it around a little bit to give it air, less poop looking, but still poop. Plan to do that every week for next 5 weeks, when I am ready to plant out.

In the area of the garden it smelled slightly sweet. Is that the right smell for the compost? Or is that ammonia?

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by tnkrer

So the horse poop has been sitting on the bed under 3-4 feet of snow all winter. I just went and moved it around a little bit to give it air, less poop looking, but still poop. Plan to do that every week for next 5 weeks, when I am ready to plant out.

In the area of the garden it smelled slightly sweet. Is that the right smell for the compost? Or is that ammonia?

Good well composted material should have a slightly sweet earthy smell usually. So this is a good sign. The only exception I have encountered is fish/seaweed products. Seems no matter how well they get composted they still stink like dead fish!

[squirrel789]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Its the minerals in the soil I have no doubt about this.
As for the manure from grass fed cows it should be a no brainer.
The cows eat the grass the grass has the minerals in it, not all of the minerals get digested by the cow.
The manure passes the minerals along to the plant.'
That is why grass fed beef to me taste better than feed lot beef.
You can look at your container tomatoes as feed lot tomatoes.
Even soil differences can make a huge difference.
The amount and type of water can also effect flavor.
A person that grew tomatoes in raised beds north of me had tomatoes that where good but not as strong in flavor as my exact same tomatoes grown in my soil.
These tomatoes came from the same seeds too.

Worth

Worth,

So, is it true that a container garden with a good fertilizer just won't produce those delicious, complexly flavored tomatoes? I've had feed-lot beef compared to small-farm-raised grass fed beef and the difference in taste is extremely noticeably significant. I've always grown in-ground with composted cow manure and straw and the tomatoes were excellent, but current circumstances require I grow a soil-less (2 parts good, local compost-2 parts peat-1 part vermiculite) patio container this year. I LOVE a good tasting tomato, but is this impossible to achieve growing in this way? Could a good fertilizer, like the Urban Farms TFF I've read so much about here, still not produce that awesome in-ground farm tomato taste? Sorry, I don't mean to hijack the thread, I'm just curious because I won't invest in a container garden again next year if that the consensus is that container gardens diminish that great tomato flavor significantly. I can always buy flavorless tomatoes from the grocery store

I am trying a 170 gallon 2'x2'x6' galvanized water trough this year as my patio is the only place available to me right now with full sun. Sorry for the intrusion on the original post, but I am curious to know if containers can be it's worth it in terms of flavor.

Thanks for any input!

[Cole_Robbie]

I grew some great Tasmanian Chocolate in pots last summer. There was no compost in the mix, just a basic peat-based pro mix. I used osmocote and miracle gro. I was really surprised how excellent the fruit tasted.

[squirrel789]

Great to know it can be done. As a newbie, I got nervous there for a bit

Thanks!

[bughunter99]

Squirrel I always add two handfuls of moist compost into my containers to help introduce some of the microbes that they would be seeing in the soil. I don't want my plants growing in a sterile environment. I want one that is an ecosystem that is alive and vibrant. Soil microbes help the plants take up nutrients, and nutrients helps with growth and flavor.

You only add a little. Too much makes the soil too heavy. A little bit of compost, innoculates the soil and then the microbes take it from there. Note my compost does not contain any manure products.

[squirrel789]

Originally Posted by bughunter99

Squirrel I always add two handfuls of moist compost into my containers to help introduce some of the microbes that they would be seeing in the soil. I don't want my plants growing in a sterile environment. I want one that is an ecosystem that is alive and vibrant. Soil microbes help the plants take up nutrients, and nutrients helps with growth and flavor.

You only add a little. Too much makes the soil too heavy. A little bit of compost, innoculates the soil and then the microbes take it from there. Note my compost does not contain any manure products.

Thanks for the info!

I just recently found the TV forum, and I had already used local nursery compost as about a third or a little less of my growing medium this year, but next year I plan to try the 5-1-1 or 3-1-1 mixes I've read so much about (the ones with pine bark fines). So far my mix has't compacted much, but there's a lot of peat and vermiculite too. Also the TFF I began using will also hopefully help, as it also provides a beneficial microbial culture if I'm not mistaken. Maybe its just my imagination, but my plants don't usually grow here in MO until it gets warmer and we have had unusually cool temps so far. However, once I started watering with the TFF, the plants are moving along like it's 85 degrees. I hope it keeps them well fed and the fruit tasty.

Thanks for the advice, and I hope everyone with be talking later in the season about how their tom's flavor turned out. Sharing the fruits of their labor, literally

Out of curiosity, what growing mix/medium do you prefer?