Benevento F1 - Page 2

gssgarden · February 2, 2021

Yet...you did. Lol

PaulTandberg · February 2, 2021

Dang, I'm sorry I missed this one. It is beautiful. I will be looking for it next season.

Fred Hempel · February 2, 2021

Quote:

Originally Posted by gssgarden

Yet...you did. Lol

Well, then...

Hybrid seed is expensive to produce. Particularly for a small company.

$6.95 for 30 seeds is not out of line for hybrid seed. Particularly when there is no shipping charge.

Jumping into a thread to throw an insult related to pricing is petty.

Do you go around throwing shade on the prices charged by a cabinet maker, because IKEA sells cabinets for less?

If Benevento sucks then $6.95 is a scam. If it is a good tomato, $6.95 is reasonable.

But thanks for your opinion, based on not growing the tomato.

gssgarden · February 3, 2021

It wasn't an insult. It was an observation.

It's my opinion and I'm entitled to that.

I don't know you, or your company. I have a feeling I do now.

Thanks for your do as I say, not as I do comment.

Countless times over the years people have commented on the price of seed and have ripped companies and owners apart here for their product and service. I did neither.
But I guess one 'oof' touched a nerve that obviously has been touched before as mentioned in another thread.

Good luck with your tomato.

KarenO · February 3, 2021

Wow.

Looking forward to growing it Fred.
(And several of your other great tomatoes as well)
Clearly the price is more than fair and completely in line for a brand new to the market gourmet hybrid beefsteak from a respected professional breeder.

KarenO

MrBig46 · February 3, 2021

Let me stand up for Fred. Creating a new hybrid tomato is hard work and then it continues with seed production. I found these two pictures from last winter on Facebook. The first is from the plot where the crossing takes place and the second is Nicol, which pollinates individual flowers with tweezers in hand. In three hours, he pollinates twenty plants, five or more flowers each. The result of this crossing then goes to the production farm, where testing is performed and some varieties are selected. I don't know, maybe just
Benvenuto F1 is the result of the whole crossing last winter, when 78 different crossings were made on the plot in the old-fashioned way. I also never imagined how difficult it is to create a meaningful cross.
Vladimír

Fred Hempel · February 3, 2021

Thanks Vladimir,

To clarify a little -- yes, that is our winter crossing field, which has all of the plants for our yearly "test" crosses. Last winter we made about 90 crosses. About 10 of them produced hybrids that stood out at 1 or more of 3 locations last summer. Although this breeding nursery represents a significant investment in time/$$ only 50-200 seeds are typically produced for any given test hybrid, and my daughter and I did all crosses by hand over the course of a week.

We are now making more hybrid seed this winter for each of those top 10 hybrids. They will be looked at very closely this year. All of the crosses are being done by us, which means that we are only producing 100-300 seeds for each of the 10 hybrids.

We are hoping that 2 or 3 of these are worthy of release, and if they are we will need to contract a professional hybrid seed producer to make the hybrid seed we would then sell. Who are these hybrid seed producers that we work with? They are small, family farms whose primary product is hybrid seed. They may also use the tomato flesh (a byproduct in this case) for something else, but their main product is the hybrid seed, and even in these production situations, they must make each hybrid cross by hand.

So, with all of this work and expense to produce hybrid seed, the obvious question is - Is it worth it?

My short answer is -- it is only worth it to produce hybrid seed, when the hybrid plants represent a truly valuable and synergistic combination. When the hybrid is clearly superior to both of the true-breeding parents.

Thus, it should be no surprise at all when seed for a valuable hybrid costs more than seed for a roughly comparable OP variety. Which is why many growers will invest in hybrid varieties that trial well for them.

Benevento is also the result of similar trial and error creating hybrids over the course of many years. Years in which we have run our business (and lives) on a shoestring, and poured everything extra into the creation of new tomato varieties.

This is why "innocent" comments on prices represent, to me, more than a simple comments. gssgarden, you know nothing of the value of this particular tomato, and yet you are making a dismissive comment on the price. And that is your only contribution to the thread here, to show up and dismiss.

It is like reviewing a restaurant, having not eaten there, and saying "oof" in response to the price of burger at an expensive restaurant because McDonalds Big Mac's are cheap. It is an observation that is really irrelevant, and superficial.

I have no problem with people bashing the performance of tomatoes I have bred in this forum. In fact, at times I lead the bashing. So, by all means, people should come back if they have tried Benevento and make comments on performance (and whether they think price is justified).

And you are right, other people have criticized the quality of product and pricing at tomatoville. Sometimes based on their experience, and sometimes based on nothing more than their impressions. And often proclamations are made by people who know very little of the true costs of creating varieties and/or harvesting and selling seed. So you are right, other people are more dismissive than you are, more often.

And many seed sellers are held to standards that I think are unreasonable. Because many of the "inexpensive" small seed vendors do it at a loss (which is fine, for many it is a hobby, but it shouldn't preclude other small companies from trying to make a living). And many of the largest seed vendors do it based on volume (and mediocre or "average" product). In the end, price is relative, and only one criterion which means nothing if not viewed in the context of the value of the product.

ac21686 · February 3, 2021

Hi Fred,

I saw that on your website it says "Sold out" and "Seed available February 2021." We are only 3 days into February, is it sold out completely for the season or has stock just not gone live just yet? Looks like a wonderful variety!

Fred Hempel · February 4, 2021

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac21686

Hi Fred,

I saw that on your website it says "Sold out" and "Seed available February 2021." We are only 3 days into February, is it sold out completely for the season or has stock just not gone live just yet? Looks like a wonderful variety!

Update on availability:

It has not sold out for the season. In fact, seed hasn't yet arrived. Right now it is looking more like late February or early March.

Our winter hybrid seed production for Benevento has been much slower than anticipated, and it is unclear whether this is a daylength issue or a nutritional issue, or something else. It could be that it is just a difficult pair of parents to do bulk hybrid seed production with.

So, seed might be limited, and we may end up reducing pack size (and price) by half to make sure more people get to try it this year.

We also have a large summer production planned, so next winter there should be plenty of Benevento seed to go around. I will post here when seed becomes available in late Feb or early March.

PaulTandberg · February 4, 2021

$6.95 for a pack of a new release hybrid tomato seeds is dirt cheap. When free shipping is included...? Wow!

Parks is selling a new hybrid, Marmande Marsalato, $7.95 for five seeds, plus $4.98 shipping. And they didn't develop it themselves and they have the advantage of scale in both purchasing and marketing. And Parks isn't making all that much on their end of the deal. It's not an easy business.

And for a small grower/breeder? Sh*t, the only way they can cut it is by paying themselves a nickel an hour. It's a labor of love. Bless the breeders. Whether they are picking through the best in a meadow or doing crosses in a lab.

Salsacharley · February 4, 2021

This point needs to be emphasized! Baker Creek sells seeds with free shipping but their packet price is usually around $5 and they really do have scale. Most other seed sellers charge shipping charges close to the amount they sell their seed packets for.

You can pretend that Fred is selling his Benevento seeds for $1.95 and shipping is $5.00. Wow! What a bargain! Only $1.95 for a pack of a newly released, highly sought hybrid!

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulTandberg

$6.95 for a pack of a new release hybrid tomato seeds is dirt cheap. When free shipping is included...? Wow!

Parks is selling a new hybrid, Marmande Marsalato. $7.95 for five seeds, plus $4.98 shipping. And they didn't develop it themselves and have the advantage of scale in both purchasing and marketing. And Parks isn't making much on their end of deal. It's not an easy business.

And for a small grower/breeder? Sh*t, the only way they can cut it by paying themselves a nickel an hour. It's a labor of love. Bless the breeders. Whether they are picking through the best in a meadow or doing crosses in a lab.

MrBig46 · February 4, 2021

It may seem rude, but with us, who doesn't like the price, so don't buy that. And that was the communist totalitarianism in my country which I lived for forty years.I value my freedom - I don't have to buy if I don't want to
Vladimír

jmsieglaff · February 4, 2021

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBig46

It may seem rude, but with us, who doesn't like the price, so don't buy that. And that was the communist totalitarianism in my country which I lived for forty years.I value my freedom - I don't have to buy if I don't want to
Vladimír

I think your comment sums it up perfectly. Let the market dictate if Fred's seeds are of value to people at his chosen price point.

As an aside, I do not think $6.95 for 30 hybrid seeds with no added shipping cost is anything crazy. Over the time, the tomato will do the talking.

Fred Hempel · February 4, 2021

This kind of reminds me of shade thrown at farmer's markets over pricing. Frankly, people showing up at the market to essentially give away produce, or sell at a cost below what it can be produced for are also quite maddening -- for farms trying to sell at a fair price.

I have seen large farms show up with boatloads of product to "dump" at prices that undercut the longtime farms at a market. In some situations they have shown up for a few weeks, sold at ridiculously low prices, and then disappeared. Leaving longtime farms to hear about the "low prices" long after they leave, by customers who now expect unrealistic pricing.

I will admit to a certain sensitivity about having my pricing shaded.

I also will admit to finding it annoying when people assume that just because some people at Tomatoville decide to give away seeds, or to set up shops where the prices are so low they are not sustainable from a business standpoint, that everyone else should sell at that price point or should not sell at a price consistent with what they determine to be fair market value.

But, in the end, as jsieglaff has said, over time whether or not a price is fair will be determined by the quality of the tomato.

hl2601 · February 4, 2021

In the end, I like to support small businesses.
In the end, the people I generally buy from and support are those who put their sweat and soul behind their products.
In the end, I too LOVE a bargain, but I don't want our varietal choices to be stymied by bargains.
I have decided I will pay more to support smaller scale businesses.
In the end, I want to pay people for hard work done with wonderful results.
Bravo Fred,

February 3, 2021	#20
KarenO Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Vancouver Island Posts: 5,931	Wow. Looking forward to growing it Fred. (And several of your other great tomatoes as well) Clearly the price is more than fair and completely in line for a brand new to the market gourmet hybrid beefsteak from a respected professional breeder. KarenO Last edited by KarenO; February 4, 2021 at 02:15 AM.

February 3, 2021	#22
Fred Hempel Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Sunol, CA Posts: 2,723	Thanks Vladimir, To clarify a little -- yes, that is our winter crossing field, which has all of the plants for our yearly "test" crosses. Last winter we made about 90 crosses. About 10 of them produced hybrids that stood out at 1 or more of 3 locations last summer. Although this breeding nursery represents a significant investment in time/$$ only 50-200 seeds are typically produced for any given test hybrid, and my daughter and I did all crosses by hand over the course of a week. We are now making more hybrid seed this winter for each of those top 10 hybrids. They will be looked at very closely this year. All of the crosses are being done by us, which means that we are only producing 100-300 seeds for each of the 10 hybrids. We are hoping that 2 or 3 of these are worthy of release, and if they are we will need to contract a professional hybrid seed producer to make the hybrid seed we would then sell. Who are these hybrid seed producers that we work with? They are small, family farms whose primary product is hybrid seed. They may also use the tomato flesh (a byproduct in this case) for something else, but their main product is the hybrid seed, and even in these production situations, they must make each hybrid cross by hand. So, with all of this work and expense to produce hybrid seed, the obvious question is - Is it worth it? My short answer is -- it is only worth it to produce hybrid seed, when the hybrid plants represent a truly valuable and synergistic combination. When the hybrid is clearly superior to both of the true-breeding parents. Thus, it should be no surprise at all when seed for a valuable hybrid costs more than seed for a roughly comparable OP variety. Which is why many growers will invest in hybrid varieties that trial well for them. Benevento is also the result of similar trial and error creating hybrids over the course of many years. Years in which we have run our business (and lives) on a shoestring, and poured everything extra into the creation of new tomato varieties. This is why "innocent" comments on prices represent, to me, more than a simple comments. gssgarden, you know nothing of the value of this particular tomato, and yet you are making a dismissive comment on the price. And that is your only contribution to the thread here, to show up and dismiss. It is like reviewing a restaurant, having not eaten there, and saying "oof" in response to the price of burger at an expensive restaurant because McDonalds Big Mac's are cheap. It is an observation that is really irrelevant, and superficial. I have no problem with people bashing the performance of tomatoes I have bred in this forum. In fact, at times I lead the bashing. So, by all means, people should come back if they have tried Benevento and make comments on performance (and whether they think price is justified). And you are right, other people have criticized the quality of product and pricing at tomatoville. Sometimes based on their experience, and sometimes based on nothing more than their impressions. And often proclamations are made by people who know very little of the true costs of creating varieties and/or harvesting and selling seed. So you are right, other people are more dismissive than you are, more often. And many seed sellers are held to standards that I think are unreasonable. Because many of the "inexpensive" small seed vendors do it at a loss (which is fine, for many it is a hobby, but it shouldn't preclude other small companies from trying to make a living). And many of the largest seed vendors do it based on volume (and mediocre or "average" product). In the end, price is relative, and only one criterion which means nothing if not viewed in the context of the value of the product. __________________ Artisan Seeds -- www.growartisan.com Last edited by Fred Hempel; February 3, 2021 at 12:50 PM.

February 4, 2021	#25
PaulTandberg Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: North Dakota Posts: 77	$6.95 for a pack of a new release hybrid tomato seeds is dirt cheap. When free shipping is included...? Wow! Parks is selling a new hybrid, Marmande Marsalato, $7.95 for five seeds, plus $4.98 shipping. And they didn't develop it themselves and they have the advantage of scale in both purchasing and marketing. And Parks isn't making all that much on their end of the deal. It's not an easy business. And for a small grower/breeder? Sht, the only way they can cut it is by paying themselves a nickel an hour. It's a labor of love. Bless the breeders. Whether they are picking through the best in a meadow or doing crosses in a lab. Last edited by PaulTandberg; February 4, 2021 at 12:36 PM.*

February 4, 2021	#27
MrBig46 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Czech republic Posts: 2,534	It may seem rude, but with us, who doesn't like the price, so don't buy that. And that was the communist totalitarianism in my country which I lived for forty years.I value my freedom - I don't have to buy if I don't want to Vladimír Last edited by MrBig46; February 4, 2021 at 01:31 PM.

February 4, 2021	#29
Fred Hempel Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Sunol, CA Posts: 2,723	This kind of reminds me of shade thrown at farmer's markets over pricing. Frankly, people showing up at the market to essentially give away produce, or sell at a cost below what it can be produced for are also quite maddening -- for farms trying to sell at a fair price. I have seen large farms show up with boatloads of product to "dump" at prices that undercut the longtime farms at a market. In some situations they have shown up for a few weeks, sold at ridiculously low prices, and then disappeared. Leaving longtime farms to hear about the "low prices" long after they leave, by customers who now expect unrealistic pricing. I will admit to a certain sensitivity about having my pricing shaded. I also will admit to finding it annoying when people assume that just because some people at Tomatoville decide to give away seeds, or to set up shops where the prices are so low they are not sustainable from a business standpoint, that everyone else should sell at that price point or should not sell at a price consistent with what they determine to be fair market value. But, in the end, as jsieglaff has said, over time whether or not a price is fair will be determined by the quality of the tomato. __________________ Artisan Seeds -- www.growartisan.com

February 2, 2021	#16
gssgarden Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: N.C. Posts: 1,827	Yet...you did. Lol

February 3, 2021	#23
ac21686 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: CT Posts: 68	Hi Fred, I saw that on your website it says "Sold out" and "Seed available February 2021." We are only 3 days into February, is it sold out completely for the season or has stock just not gone live just yet? Looks like a wonderful variety!

February 4, 2021	#30
hl2601 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: Metro Denver Posts: 767	In the end, I like to support small businesses. In the end, the people I generally buy from and support are those who put their sweat and soul behind their products. In the end, I too LOVE a bargain, but I don't want our varietal choices to be stymied by bargains. I have decided I will pay more to support smaller scale businesses. In the end, I want to pay people for hard work done with wonderful results. Bravo Fred,