The blue danger threatens the conformity of tomatoes) Summary Sin

[Darren Abbey]

Originally Posted by Gerardo

I found this one to be pretty interesting and informative, about color of tomatoes in general. Written for average reader.
http://frogsleapfarm.blogspot.mx/201...-color-in.html

There's another one that is along similar lines to the above, but with differences in the details and the approach to the topic: http://the-biologist-is-in.blogspot....-tomatoes.html (For clarity, this is one that I wrote.)

[Gerardo]

Originally Posted by Darren Abbey

There's another one that is along similar lines to the above, but with differences in the details and the approach to the topic: http://the-biologist-is-in.blogspot....-tomatoes.html (For clarity, this is one that I wrote.)

Well done, lots of work went into that piece. The 2nd section with concrete examples really kicks derriere.

[Ambiorix]

It is necessary to wait for the end of the report before taking a stand face to face of this problem because you go can be surprised being.

[remy]

I realize there's a little bit of a language barrier, but some of the instability you talk of is not from crossing, but from people sharing seeds of varieties that are not actually stable, or am I misunderstanding?

[remy]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

I just have a simple question :

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN indigo rose AND indigo apple ? Are they related ?
Thanks
Gardeneer

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Thanks


Quote from Tatiana

The reason I asked :
1- I am growing Indigo Rose
2- Few weeks ago in somebody's garden , i saw a plant that looked almost exactly like my IR and it was labeled " INDIGO APPLE". That is both the plant/size/foliage and the fruits were identical.
Also I did a google image search. The same results.

Gardeneer.

Being Indigo Rose was released in 2012 (maybe some got seeds in 2011) but for all intents and purposes 2012, and Indigo Apple came out a year later, I would say that are one in the same as being an F5 a year later is impossible.
Remy

[Worth1]

Apple
http://www.tomatogrowers.com/INDIGO-...ductinfo/5319/

Rose
http://www.tomatogrowers.com/INDIGO-...ductinfo/5301/

Worth

[travis]

Offered to help clarify source and F-generation of Indigo Apple germplasm currently offered at several seed sales sites:

"Indigo Apple is a rare OSU Blue cross selected five (5) generations for color and taste. This tomato has supreme shock value. Thank you PKS Heirlooms for the original cross! The unripe green fruit will show lots of purple, which is brought on by the sunlight, will eventually turn almost a true black. This is caused by the high anthocyanin level (antioxidant found in blueberries). This tomato has a good sweet tomato flavor. I am one of three people in the world with this particular F-5 cross." (posted on Wild Boar Farms website, circa April 2014)

For more information regarding the selection and stabilization of Indigo Apple tomato, I suggest contacting Brad Gates, at at wildboarfarms@hotmail.com.

Meanwhile, and with regard to the possibility of obtaining F5 generation with an "OSU Blue" outcross when Indigo Rose was only released 3 years ago, keep in mind that "OSU Blue" germplasm escaped the OSU laboratory circa 2008, and in a form not exactly the same as Indigo Rose, which is what Dr. Myers wished to release as the "stabilized" version of P20.

The PKS Heirloom entity (represented by Brad Gates as the source for the original cross subsequently selected year after year by Brad until his release of Indigo Apple) obtained "OSU Blue" seeds circa Fall 2009 or Winter 2010, from a source in England, and possibly in a form that already showed an outcross that had occurred in a certain garden (which at this time shall remain unnamed) in 2009, and which germplasm produced what became known as "OSU Blue Large" (google it), obviously an outcross due to 1) the larger size and particular shape of the tomatoes, and 2) the fact that the vines were indeterminate, while the original seed sent to England the previous year were from a fully determinate bush that produced 2-ounce, round to plum shape fruit.

Therefore, I submit that Indigo Rose essentially is an attempted stabilization of P20, while Indigo Apple most likely is the F5 or greater selection from a possibly accidental outcross or maybe a purposeful outcross of an accidental outcross rather than what TGS is calling "a variation" of Indigo Rose.

[maf]

Originally Posted by remy

I realize there's a little bit of a language barrier, but some of the instability you talk of is not from crossing, but from people sharing seeds of varieties that are not actually stable, or am I misunderstanding?

I think the proposition Ambiorix is putting forward is that the pollen from the "blue" varieties is more easily spread to other plants than "regular" tomato pollen. This is not the first time I have heard this theory espoused and I know at least one participant in this thread has previously expressed some thoughts on the matter.

Personally, I have an open mind. The blue varieties may pollinate other types more readily, or the off-types from them may just be more easily recognised in the subsequent growouts. I look forward to Ambiorix's results and conclusions.

[Gardeneer]

I am getting to love blue tomatoes.
My lone Indigo rose has been fruiting since June and right now has close to 15 fruits on it.
What is more interesting to me that it has fairly a compact indet growth habit.
Next season I will add Indigo Apple too.
Tastewise, I have found out that when you let it fully ripen it gets nice and sweet.
So it is triple nice : Ornamental, Compact and productive.

Gardeneer

[Darren Abbey]

Originally Posted by maf

The blue varieties may pollinate other types more readily, or the off-types from them may just be more easily recognised in the subsequent growouts.

I'm of the camp that thinks that the hybrids simply stand out more, since the trait is so out-of-the-norm for "tomatoes".

However, there really are differences in the outcrossability of different strains. The wild germplasm from which the "blue genes" came from may indeed include other traits that increase the ability of pollen to travel.

[travis]

Correction to my earlier speculation regarding the origin of the Indigo Apple cross. The original cross was made by Mark McCaslin (Frogsleap Farms) who sent F2 seeds to PKS Heirlooms who shared some of those F2 seeds with Wild Boar Farms.

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Apple
http://www.tomatogrowers.com/INDIGO-...ductinfo/5319/

Rose
http://www.tomatogrowers.com/INDIGO-...ductinfo/5301/

Worth

Thanks Woth,

Am I color blind ? I see no significant difference:
APPLE .... ROSE

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Thanks Woth,

Am I color blind ? I see no significant difference:
APPLE .... ROSE

I also gave you links to Tania's pages for both back in I think post 8 or 9/

If you see no significant color difference that's fine, but that doesn't mean the two are the same variety when you look at the histories that Tania gave for both.

If I put up two pictures of large fruited pinks, maybe Omar's Lebanese and Large Pink Bulgarian could you tell which was which? I think not. And if you had both in your garden, could you tell the difference between them just by looking at them? I think not.

There's much more to a variety than just exterior appearance.

Carolyn

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Thanks Woth,

Am I color blind ? I see no significant difference:
APPLE .... ROSE

I dont either but then again I dont (see) a difference in many of the tomatoes grown.
My next step is growth habit productivity seed content and flavor.

From my utterly stupid point of view if there isn't any difference then as far as I am concerned they are one and the same.
Maybe not genetically but just for my use.
This is why I dont get involved in the latest fad tomatoes going around.
This is one of the reasons I dont label my plants sometimes.
I know what they are without one.

Worth

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Worth1

I dont either but then again I dont (see) a difference in many of the tomatoes grown.
My next step is growth habit productivity seed content and flavor.

From my utterly stupid point of view if there isn't any difference then as far as I am concerned they are one and the same.
Maybe not genetically but just for my use.
This is why I dont get involved in the latest fad tomatoes going around.
This is one of the reasons I dont label my plants sometimes.
I know what they are without one.

Worth

Worth, please see my post a few minutes before you posted which is just above this post of yours.

Carolyn