True Garlic Seed

[Kazedwards]

Originally Posted by greenthumbomaha

Ahh, yet another garden challenge to conquer. I thought it was exciting just to produce homegrown garlic. I don't know if I'll have the patience and heat resistance to pick off those bulbils in the intense July heat, sun, and bugs but its a nice thought in mid winter with single digit wind chills.

This is useful as well as cool to know; thank you for posting the info.

- Lisa

Yes it can be a pain but once the first 5-10 bulbils come out the rest are easy. It only takes a minute or two per umbel. Hope you decided to give it a try. Feel free to contact me with any questions. I know several people working on getting true seed too.


-Zach

[svalli]

Backyard Farming: Growing Garlic book by Kim Pezza, has an advice of cutting off the scape and keeping it in a vase of water, while removing the bulbils and letting the flowers to grow. This way it can be kept away from too hot sun, which may cause the flowers to wither too early.

I could try this with some of my hardnecks, but I am not sure, if I have patience to grow garlic from true seeds. I am now trying with some bulbils, which I got from a garlic aficionado, who has collected couple of hundreds different garlic varieties.

Sari

[bower]

I tried for true seed from cut scapes one year, but didn't get any seeds. I did plant a lot of the bulbils I removed but they were not as good as bulbils matured on the scape as without wrappers many of them shrivelled up. Be prepared for a long wait, the process took months (but I enjoyed having the flowers in the house all the same). In hindsight, if I try again I will cut the scapes longer, and perhaps use sugar water as one expert recommended (as florists do) to make sure there's enough nutrients to make the seeds. Our summer is not at all long enough to grow garlic seed in the field. Even for bulbils, the scapes have to be harvested before they are full grown and the capsule beginning to open, as it is getting frosty well before they reach that stage. So I cut them when I have to, and let them mature indoors until planting time.
Growing out bulbils is a great method for increasing your stock and getting new varieties. I'm doing this every year now in addition to my crop garlic planting. The Music which is now part of my general crop was grown up from bulbils in a few years, and I'm very happy with it!

[svalli]

Pardon me for sidetracking this thread, but I just can't be not commenting.

Originally Posted by Durgan

...Almost all garlic is similar, the only variable is the size of the bulb and sometimes the color produced ,which is highly dependent upon the weather, and when it is harvested...

I have to strongly disagree with this, or did you mean that all the garlic, which you grow are similar?
Different varieties do also taste different. Some are more pungent and others are mild. Some varieties do not keep so well and others can be stored in same environment for long period. My Siberian marbled purple stripe garlic has huge cloves, which start to shrivel in February, while the smaller cloved Spanish Morados have stayed edible over a year. Both of these are hardnecks and vary a lot in size, color, taste, hardiness and storage lenght. The tastes do also change in storage and some varieties should be used soon after curing and others are like wine and develop the best taste during storage.
I am quite new to growing garlic, but trying new varieties has changed my view on this vegetable, which many consider just as a condiment.

I was once asked why do I fuss with so many tomato varieties, because all tomatoes taste the same. After I brought this person a bowl of fresh tomatoes from my garden, she was amazed how different the varieties were.

So saying that all garlic is similar is same as saying that all tomatoes or potatoes are similar. Naturally the basics are the same within the plant species, but varieties do have different needs for growing conditions and time for maturity and also usage of the crop varies between the cultivars. Just like tomatoes some garlic varieties are best for fresh eating and some are better for roasting or preserving.

Sari

[Durgan]

Evidence if you like. Talk is meaningless. I photograph and use the visual evidence to support my conclusions.

http://durgan.org/2016/July%202016/2...c%20Bulb/HTML/ 23 July 2016 Garlic Bulb
One garlic bulb was harvested to ascertain if it meets my criteria for harvesting the bed. Criteria is the bulb sheath should be open such that most of the cloves are visible. This is contrary to convention where the bulbs are pulled when the tops die down about one third and the sheath is closed. The theory being that the bulbs store better. I have found the bulbs are substantially larger if allowed to split the sheath and storage time is essentially same with a closed or open sheath. The bulb weighed 151 grams and each clove was 39,31,37,25,32, and 43 grams. The was the undried or not cured weight. Quality hard neck garlic does not vary much in size. My bed will remain as is for about another two weeks before commencing harvest.

[NathanP]

I have now abandoned (aka, eaten) 100% of the varieties I used to grow that produced only bulbils.

In 2016 I purchased and traded for 5 varieties that are known to have produced TGS. Last year I did get a few TGS off one of them, but then proceeded to lose it among the discarded stems. Mainly last year was increasing stock for replanting anyway, and my TGS was only a halfhearted effort. I will be trying it with the vase method use for flower stalks.

I now have
NOVO TROITSK (USDA W6 26171)
CHESKOK RED (aka SHVELISI or USDA W6 35657)
NAVISTAR
CHIMYAN (W6 46684)
PSKEM RIVER - the one least likely to produced TGS.

NAVISTAR was produced from TGS by Ivan Buddenhagen

Joseph has done a very good job of compiling links on the site below.
http://garden.lofthouse.com/true-garlic-seed.phtml

Here are a few more including this one from Israel.
https://www.garlicfarm.ca/article-garlic-seeds.htm

Garlicana has many that Avram offers. I also found a site in Canada that sells several Purple Stripes that produce TGS. Have to go find the link

[NathanP]

Here is the link I was looking for, regarding a Canadian source:

http://www.rasacreekfarm.com/organic...garlic-catalog
http://www.rasacreekfarm.com/how-to-...ue-garlic-seed

And Avram's Garlicana catalog can be found here:
http://www.garlicana.com/

[velikipop]

I am interested to learn what people mean by garlic seed. Only hardneck varieties produce bulbils, is that what you mean by seeds? Softneck varieties do not produce scapes so they would not have seeds. As far as I know growing garlic from bulbils takes about three years to produce a mature head of garlic. Good sources for garlic info are books by Ted Meredith and Ron Engeland.

I agree that all garlic is not the same but there are many varieties that have different names but are exactly the same. One example is Susan Delefield, Music and Northern Quebec. I have grown all three and could not find any difference amongst them. I am sure that this applies to many other vegetables and especially tomatoes.

[svalli]

The bulbils are not true seeds. Some hardneck varieties can produce true seeds, if the bulbils are removed and the flowers get pollinated. I have read that the varieties which are closer to the original wild garlic should be easier to get produce true seeds.

I agree about the books of Meredith and Engeland, both are excellent sources of information.

[velikipop]

Hmm, that is interesting because I have never seen flowers on garlic, but I know that other alliums produce them. I have had wild garlic with seeds and they will self seed. I will keep a close eye on my 2017 crop to see if any produce seeds. Thanks.

Alex

[meganp]

Originally Posted by velikipop

Hmm, that is interesting because I have never seen flowers on garlic, but I know that other alliums produce them. I have had wild garlic with seeds and they will self seed. I will keep a close eye on my 2017 crop to see if any produce seeds. Thanks.

Alex

It may be because you are growing garlic varieties that do not produce any/many flowers eg turbans, rocamboles or softnecks?

If you go to Joseph's true garlic seed page, he has compiled a list of links to the most important blogs, forums and research papers with information on growing true seed and has summarised his own efforts in producing true seed http://garden.lofthouse.com/true-garlic-seed.phtml

[bower]

Originally Posted by NathanP

Here is the link I was looking for, regarding a Canadian source:

http://www.rasacreekfarm.com/organic...garlic-catalog
http://www.rasacreekfarm.com/how-to-...ue-garlic-seed

And Avram's Garlicana catalog can be found here:
http://www.garlicana.com/

I have some of the Rasa list, growing from bulbils, that aren't big enough yet to try for seeds, maybe in a year or two if they do size up.
I have Chesnok Red and Persian Star, the second year cloves were planted this fall. these two Purple Stripes are quite late for us here, so I'm a little concerned if I can get them to a sustainable full size.
Also got Kostyn's Red Russian bulbils in a swap last year, and got a few really nice rounds planted - seems these size up quicker than the Purple Stripes, I'm optimistic! after year 1.
And I have Russian Red (Red Russian?) bulbils to plant. I think they are the Marbled purple stripe not the Rocambole, based on the size and shape of the bulbils.

The year I tried for true seeds, I had Chesnok and Music from my garden, and also had a bunch of scapes of Persian Star and some Spanish Roja that were missed and/or dropped on the ground after they were cut, at my friend's farm. Got lovely flowers on Chesnok and Persian Star - loads on the PStar - and a few on the Spanish Roja, and they did form capsules but there were no seeds this time. Music and Leningrad, now that I recall, they just kept pushing out bulbils as long as I kept plucking them off. Nothing like a fully formed flower on them, although I hear it is possible. Leningrad is another one that is just too late for us here.

[velikipop]

Originally Posted by meganp

It may be because you are growing garlic varieties that do not produce any/many flowers eg turbans, rocamboles or softnecks?

If you go to Joseph's true garlic seed page, he has compiled a list of links to the most important blogs, forums and research papers with information on growing true seed and has summarised his own efforts in producing true seed http://garden.lofthouse.com/true-garlic-seed.phtml

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[NathanP]

Got lovely flowers on Chesnok and Persian Star - loads on the PStar - and a few on the Spanish Roja, and they did form capsules but there were no seeds this time. Music and Leningrad, now that I recall, they just kept pushing out bulbils as long as I kept plucking them off. Nothing like a fully formed flower on them, although I hear it is possible. Leningrad is another one that is just too late for us here.

Have you tried the method where you place the cut stems in a half buried glass or vase of water once they start flowering? Those who have done this say that they have better development of TGS like this. I will try it this year.

[Deborah]

What does hardneck mean?