Can You Identify the Cause of This Problem? *pics* - Page 2

dice · July 5, 2008

Did you test pH to see if there was much difference between
afflicted and not afflicted plants? I was wondering about
flouride toxicity, which is more likely in low-pH soils. Plants
don't use flourine, but municipal water supplies usually have
a steady supply of it. A number of other minerals that the plant
usually has no problem with can become a problem at low
pH levels, like iron and magnesium, which become much more
soluble at low pH and may block the intake of other nutrients
that the plant needs or simply be taken up at toxic levels.

It could be something built up in the soil from the water:
flouride, chlorine, salt, etc, that affects some plants more
than others. It is interesting that the plant does not show
other nutrient deficiency symptoms, like purpling or bronzing
of the leaves, red tones, tip die-back, chlorosis, marginal
necrosis on the leaves, die-back of the growing tips, etc.
For leaves to just suddenly curl up and die without any
telltale color changes or other symptoms along the way is a
strange thing.

Maybe you will get lucky, and letting them dry out a bit will
fix it.

Edit:

PS: Since you have several affected plants, you could try a
couple of tablespoons of molasses in a gallon of water on
one of them, either adding it to the reservoir or just pouring
it on top of the container mix. The idea is to see if they are
running out of potassium, which is highly mobile in both
the soil and the plant. (Molasses is 5% potassium, and bacteria
break it down quickly.) The plant could be robbing the leaves
of potassium to ripen fruit.

rnewste · July 6, 2008

dice,

I really appreciate your thorough assessment as to what could be going on here.

Regarding the Florine possibility, I have been growing tomatoes at this location for the past 12 years, and not had a similar problem as I am seeing this year. pH in the 'Tainers is averaging 6.8. Couple that with the situation that many of the plants are doing just fine in their 'Tainers. Here is a photo of a Carmello pair, lush and over 8 ft. tall today:

I have gone back to what treatments I've applied over the past month or so, and I did apply a foliar spray of Triazicide to kill off some white flies I was experiencing. I remember spraying the container group in my main area - - but did NOT spray the Carmello plant which is located on the deck, and did not have the white fly problem. That is the only difference that I can recall.

In re-reading the label tonight, the Triazicide instructs on this product killing "lawn and landscape insects", but it says nothing about use (or non-use) on tomato plants. Could it be that tomato plants are much more "fragile" and that my spraying them with Triazicide may have damaged them systemically?

In any event, most of the plants are cranking out tomatoes. Here is a JD C-Tex on the left, and 2 Purple Haze plants alongside:

Ray

troad · July 6, 2008

Ray,
The Triazicide says it is for use on tomatoes,tomatillo, peppers,eggplant and more vegetables. I bought some this Spring when I noticed whiteflies on my tomatoes especially on my Opalka. I sprayed the Opalka and the plants on both sides of it. A Tony's Italian and a Prudens Purple. Long story but I gave on the Opalka and pulled it up. The Prudens seems to be okay but the Tony's Italian still does not look right. Some leaf curl and some of the branches seemed to turn almost upside down. Plus some of the leaf branches on the Tony's seem to be extra long but not full of leaves if that makes sense to you.
Do you recall what strength you used the Triazicide at? Don't believe I will use it again on my tomatoes. Maybe it affects some tomatoes more than others. Just a thought.

rnewste · July 6, 2008

Len,

I used a 4X amount of the concentrate (put 1 gallon's worth in a quart sprayer). Probably should not have done that - - but that is history. I too am very hesitant to use pesticides, and if I had to do it over again, I would NOT have sprayed at all.

That is the only treatment difference between what I did to the Paul Robeson, and what was (not) done to the Carmello in the above photo.

Ray

troad · July 6, 2008

Ray,
Not sure what you meant by a 4x amount? Did you put a tablespoon in a quart of water? Or a tablespoon in a gallon of water as directions indicate?

rnewste · July 6, 2008

I put a tablespoon in a quart container. Stupid me!

Ray

troad · July 6, 2008

Ray,
Big oops.
Any idea if you can wash away any of the insecticide by hosing down the plants with water? Or is it too late to help them now? Best of luck.
P. S. Nice looking corn in your tainers and you have really been great about the tainers and helping others with their construction. Have meant to say that before but now seems a good time. Sorry for your error. Hope the plants can pull out of it okay.

dice · July 6, 2008

You were probably thinking that since the pesticide claimed to
be safe to use on tomatoes, the worst that could happen by
using 4x the recommended amount is that you used more than
you needed to. Perhaps not.

(I dislike spraying just because it is inconvenient to do it on
a regular basis for a lot of plants, but I tend to be suspicious
of the "inert ingredients" in any kind of commercial chemical
sprays and water soluble products, too.)

I seem to recall that the Florida grower's thread from last
winter and spring had some discussion of whitefly problems
(possibly with recommendations).

peebee · July 10, 2008

Ray, for the first time since I've grown tomatoes (about 15 years),I have noticed the same weird wilting of green leaves too, first in my container-grown Black Cherry, AND my in-ground Eva's Purple. They are so dry they crumble, and look just like your photos. I am wondering if maybe our crazy weather did it, at least in SO CAL we had a long heat wave recently, even though I made sure the toms were watered daily (I don't think the problem is lack of water, otherwise it would have recovered afterwards).
Frustrating...

rnewste · July 10, 2008

peebee,

What ever it is, it seems to be affecting my plants differently. My Paul Robeson and 1884 Purple are virtually gone from head to toe (in the reverse sequence). Yet my Carmello and JD C-Tex are thriving.

In addition we have really been hit hard by powdery leaf mold in our area this year (article in this week's paper is reporting Crepe Myrtle trees are severely impacted) and even my snow peas are covered with it.

So I am dealing with two separate problems here this year. Fortunately, I have no aphids nor any other insect problems here, as many other folks on TV are reporting. I would just like to identify the cause of the first problem of the leaves rapidly drying up and flaking from the bottom branches upward.

Ray

dice · July 11, 2008

Whatever it is, it seems vascular to me, like the parts of the
plant that carry moisture to those leaves are collapsing.

cdg · June 5, 2009

Hello rnewste , Just wondering , did you ever come to any conclusions to this problem . I am having the same problem again this year with Paul Robeson . Third year . Large healthy plant , loads up with tomatoes , wilt starts (looks exactly like your photos) . The past two years they recover somewhat but by then it is too hot here for tomato set. Are you still growing the ones you had problems with??
CDG

Jimche · June 22, 2009

Hello,
I am wondering what the problem is with several plants showing this yellowing on leaves at the bottom one-third of the plants. It is affecting a couple of PL varieties, plus one RL (Reisentraube). Only a few plants of these varieties are showing this, but we'd like to prevent it from spreading. Any info on what we are seeing here and what options there are for correcting it would be appreciated!

Jimche

dice · June 23, 2009

Look here (it looks like more than one possibility; you can
Google the things that look close and see if more detailed
descriptions can eliminate any of them as possibilities):

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/p...emsolver/leaf/

chalstonsc · June 23, 2009

For what it's worth, I can't get any of your pictures, but your descriptions seem to match what has hit my Black Cherry and Indian Stripe plants....and it has not hit any of my other dozen or so varieties. Your descriptions and what my plants have seem to match the picture of bacterial canker in the site that dice has posted above.

July 5, 2008	#16
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	Did you test pH to see if there was much difference between afflicted and not afflicted plants? I was wondering about flouride toxicity, which is more likely in low-pH soils. Plants don't use flourine, but municipal water supplies usually have a steady supply of it. A number of other minerals that the plant usually has no problem with can become a problem at low pH levels, like iron and magnesium, which become much more soluble at low pH and may block the intake of other nutrients that the plant needs or simply be taken up at toxic levels. It could be something built up in the soil from the water: flouride, chlorine, salt, etc, that affects some plants more than others. It is interesting that the plant does not show other nutrient deficiency symptoms, like purpling or bronzing of the leaves, red tones, tip die-back, chlorosis, marginal necrosis on the leaves, die-back of the growing tips, etc. For leaves to just suddenly curl up and die without any telltale color changes or other symptoms along the way is a strange thing. Maybe you will get lucky, and letting them dry out a bit will fix it. Edit: PS: Since you have several affected plants, you could try a couple of tablespoons of molasses in a gallon of water on one of them, either adding it to the reservoir or just pouring it on top of the container mix. The idea is to see if they are running out of potassium, which is highly mobile in both the soil and the plant. (Molasses is 5% potassium, and bacteria break it down quickly.) The plant could be robbing the leaves of potassium to ripen fruit. __________________ -- alias Last edited by dice; July 5, 2008 at 02:20 PM. Reason: suggestion

July 6, 2008	#18
troad Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Des Moines, WA. Posts: 358	Ray, The Triazicide says it is for use on tomatoes,tomatillo, peppers,eggplant and more vegetables. I bought some this Spring when I noticed whiteflies on my tomatoes especially on my Opalka. I sprayed the Opalka and the plants on both sides of it. A Tony's Italian and a Prudens Purple. Long story but I gave on the Opalka and pulled it up. The Prudens seems to be okay but the Tony's Italian still does not look right. Some leaf curl and some of the branches seemed to turn almost upside down. Plus some of the leaf branches on the Tony's seem to be extra long but not full of leaves if that makes sense to you. Do you recall what strength you used the Triazicide at? Don't believe I will use it again on my tomatoes. Maybe it affects some tomatoes more than others. Just a thought. __________________ There's a fine line between gardening and madness.

July 6, 2008	#20
troad Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Des Moines, WA. Posts: 358	Ray, Not sure what you meant by a 4x amount? Did you put a tablespoon in a quart of water? Or a tablespoon in a gallon of water as directions indicate? __________________ There's a fine line between gardening and madness.

July 6, 2008	#22
troad Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Des Moines, WA. Posts: 358	Ray, Big oops. Any idea if you can wash away any of the insecticide by hosing down the plants with water? Or is it too late to help them now? Best of luck. P. S. Nice looking corn in your tainers and you have really been great about the tainers and helping others with their construction. Have meant to say that before but now seems a good time. Sorry for your error. Hope the plants can pull out of it okay. __________________ There's a fine line between gardening and madness.

July 6, 2008	#23
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	You were probably thinking that since the pesticide claimed to be safe to use on tomatoes, the worst that could happen by using 4x the recommended amount is that you used more than you needed to. Perhaps not. (I dislike spraying just because it is inconvenient to do it on a regular basis for a lot of plants, but I tend to be suspicious of the "inert ingredients" in any kind of commercial chemical sprays and water soluble products, too.) I seem to recall that the Florida grower's thread from last winter and spring had some discussion of whitefly problems (possibly with recommendations). __________________ -- alias

July 6, 2008	#17
rnewste Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Campbell, CA Posts: 4,064	dice, I really appreciate your thorough assessment as to what could be going on here. Regarding the Florine possibility, I have been growing tomatoes at this location for the past 12 years, and not had a similar problem as I am seeing this year. pH in the 'Tainers is averaging 6.8. Couple that with the situation that many of the plants are doing just fine in their 'Tainers. Here is a photo of a Carmello pair, lush and over 8 ft. tall today: I have gone back to what treatments I've applied over the past month or so, and I did apply a foliar spray of Triazicide to kill off some white flies I was experiencing. I remember spraying the container group in my main area - - but did NOT spray the Carmello plant which is located on the deck, and did not have the white fly problem. That is the only difference that I can recall. In re-reading the label tonight, the Triazicide instructs on this product killing "lawn and landscape insects", but it says nothing about use (or non-use) on tomato plants. Could it be that tomato plants are much more "fragile" and that my spraying them with Triazicide may have damaged them systemically? In any event, most of the plants are cranking out tomatoes. Here is a JD C-Tex on the left, and 2 Purple Haze plants alongside: Ray

July 10, 2008	#24
peebee Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Southern CA Posts: 1,714	Ray, for the first time since I've grown tomatoes (about 15 years),I have noticed the same weird wilting of green leaves too, first in my container-grown Black Cherry, AND my in-ground Eva's Purple. They are so dry they crumble, and look just like your photos. I am wondering if maybe our crazy weather did it, at least in SO CAL we had a long heat wave recently, even though I made sure the toms were watered daily (I don't think the problem is lack of water, otherwise it would have recovered afterwards). Frustrating...

July 11, 2008	#26
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	Whatever it is, it seems vascular to me, like the parts of the plant that carry moisture to those leaves are collapsing. __________________ -- alias

June 5, 2009	#27
cdg Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2006 Location: North/Central Texas Posts: 67	Hello rnewste , Just wondering , did you ever come to any conclusions to this problem . I am having the same problem again this year with Paul Robeson . Third year . Large healthy plant , loads up with tomatoes , wilt starts (looks exactly like your photos) . The past two years they recover somewhat but by then it is too hot here for tomato set. Are you still growing the ones you had problems with?? CDG

June 23, 2009	#29
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	Look here (it looks like more than one possibility; you can Google the things that look close and see if more detailed descriptions can eliminate any of them as possibilities): http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/p...emsolver/leaf/ __________________ -- alias

June 23, 2009	#30
chalstonsc Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: sc Posts: 339	For what it's worth, I can't get any of your pictures, but your descriptions seem to match what has hit my Black Cherry and Indian Stripe plants....and it has not hit any of my other dozen or so varieties. Your descriptions and what my plants have seem to match the picture of bacterial canker in the site that dice has posted above.