Excess Nutrient Problem - need advice

[PureHarvest]

So that lab is using a modified Morgan test extraction which are calibrated for soils in the Northeast. Bolding is my emphasis:

"The analytical methods used by the laboratory were developed for climate and soil types common to New England and the Northeastern U.S. It is important to recognize that the values obtained when a soil sample is analyzed are of little use as raw analytical data. In order to make use of the values in predicting nutrient needs, the test must be calibrated by conducting nutrient response research, under local conditions with representative soils ranging from deficient to adequate for each nutrient of concern. The optimum range (or typical range in some cases) is provided in the column to the right of your results. These interpretations, as well as lime and fertilizer recommendations, are based on field and greenhouse trials conducted in Massachusetts and other Northeastern states. Recommendations provided with your soil test report are specific to the crop selection that you identified on your soil sample submission form and are based on the analytical results for your sample."

I wonder what would happen if she planted again and just used some nitrogen this time.

Also, consider that those number aren't pounds or part per million. That, and most tests are not showing the total nutrients in the soil, but what the lab predicts will be plant available for this growing season. This is why the lab testing method/extraction, locality, and crop you list will affect the results.

I would tell her to buy some wheat, rye, or barley. Plant a 2'x2' spot. Just rough up the surface and pat the seeds down/rake them lightly into the top 1/2-1".
Then do the same in another spot, but sprinkle or water in some form of nitrogen. Dried Blood or Urea will be mostly N. Other stuff is gonna give you more P and K etc.
See what happens from there.
Those seeds germinate quickly, assuming you are between 40 and 80 degrees, so you wont have to wait forever to get results and be able to assess.

[brownrexx]

Actually it does say that the results are in ppm and although I agree that the growing recommendations might not be even close to accurate, I would think that the actual ppm would be accurate.

I like the idea of planting wheat, barley or rye and seeing what happens.

[Worth1]

If it is rye grass (not) rye grain it will grow in just about anything.
I planted some a while back and it has now spread by way of seed across the road and taken over the weed patch that was there.
When I cut it after it went to seed I pointed the lawnmower that way on purpose.

Worth

[RayR]

Originally Posted by brownrexx

Yes she did show them the test results and they SAY that they will refund her the $400 she paid but she is still waiting for that......

She is growing in pots this year but would love to remediate that soil if possible.

I was thinking about suggesting that she remove half of it and mix in some new soil and also grow a cover crop that she can discard. If it even grows that is!

What do you think?

A 50/50 mix would be a good place to start, but I would take some from the bed and mix it 50/50 with a plain peat/perlite mix buffered between PH 6-7 (no nutrient charge of any kind) and try it in a container first and see how a plant performs in it. Tweak it from there if need be.

Originally Posted by Worth1

Since she didn't get a nitrogen report why doesn't she just put a plant in the soil and hit it with nitrogen and nothing else and see what happens.
There is nothing to lose and results should happen in about 2 to three days.
Worth

Worth, do you think since this suicidal super soil has too much of everything else that it wouldn't contain too much nitrogen? I'm not so sure, I would err on the side of caution. Of course she could do it as a side experiment. The worse she could do is kill a plant faster.

[PureHarvest]

You would think with the OM as high as it is that the N would have been sufficient. That is why I was thinking of doing a small grain test with N and no N.

But then again, the other excesses could be limiting the N uptake.

No offense on the gardener, but there is also the possibility that something else other than the soil was to blame?

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by RayR

A 50/50 mix would be a good place to start, but I would take some from the bed and mix it 50/50 with a plain peat/perlite mix buffered between PH 6-7 (no nutrient charge of any kind) and try it in a container first and see how a plant performs in it. Tweak it from there if need be.



Worth, do you think since this suicidal super soil has too much of everything else that it wouldn't contain too much nitrogen? I'm not so sure, I would err on the side of caution. Of course she could do it as a side experiment. The worse she could do is kill a plant faster.

You know as well as I that nitrogen can be hard to keep in the soil depending on what form it is in.
I am wondering if they even added anything to the soil at all that would have nitrogen.
The soil I bought didn't.

I still think that her plants might come unglued and grow if just nitrogen was added.
Like you said and I said what would it hurt kill one plant if it did it would mean the plant was responding to it and it was too much.


Worth

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by PureHarvest

You would think with the OM as high as it is that the N would have been sufficient. That is why I was thinking of doing a small grain test with N and no N.

But then again, the other excesses could be limiting the N uptake.

No offense on the gardener, but there is also the possibility that something else other than the soil was to blame?

Depends on what the OM was if it was hot decomposed wood then the nitrogen would or could be depleted.

You and I both know man made soils aren't the same as natural soil.
Too many people buy this stuff thinking it is a cure all and should grow plants without any help.

[Worth1]

Here is a picture of the soil I have my potatoes growing in.
Most people would look at this stuff and say it wasn't worth a hoot.
What I have done is when I planted the potatoes I laid down a good line of Plant Tone in a trench up hill a bit of the potatoes and covered it up.
Then when the plants came up I watered them with Alaska Fish Fertilizer.
On top of that I spread out some 17-17-17 slow release granular fertilizer.
Seems to be working.
Yesterday I pulled a worm out of this soil the size of a Timber Rattler.
Worth
IMG_20160318_49831.jpg

IMG_20160318_56785.jpg

IMG_20160318_42576.jpg

[brownrexx]

Originally Posted by PureHarvest

No offense on the gardener, but there is also the possibility that something else other than the soil was to blame?

No offence taken. She has raised beds and she emptied them out last year and replaced the soil with this new stuff and then had the soil tested.

Too bad she didn't think to test it first but this was a purchased "organic soil" and she trusted them.

I thought that it might have improved by sitting barren for a year but they get very little rain out there to leach nutrients so it didn't change much.

[Dutch]

Besides the N possibly being low, that much iron is toxic to vegetables like tomatoes.
That much iron could grow great grain crops or could produce a fantastic lawn.
Dutch

[Dutch]

"Iron toxicity is not common, but some plants do secrete acids from the roots, which lowers soil pH. These plants can take up too much iron, leading to toxicity. The symptoms of iron toxicity include bronzing and stippling of leaves. The leaf discoloration is caused by the plant creating enzymes to control free radicals that are present in high iron levels. Some plants that are prone to iron toxicity include tomatoes, basil, phlox and impatiens." http://homeguides.sfgate.com/effect-...nts-48927.html
Dutch

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Besides the N possibly being low, that much iron is toxic to vegetables like tomatoes.
That much iron could grow great grain crops or could produce a fantastic lawn.
Dutch

This is why I would suggest growing the plant types you/they/she were going to grow not some form of grass.

When my pH was off the charts onions and grass still grew but tomatoes wouldn't.

Worth

[Barbee]

Look at the cation base sat % and see where the soil is out of whack
It should roughly read:
K 5-10%
Mg 10-20%
Ca 70-80%

balanced soil is pretty important. It can be high or low but as long as its balanced, you should be able to grow a garden on it.

[brownrexx]

I asked my friend a few additional questions. She said that it was advertised as organic garden blend soil and you can "plant veggies right in it". They were digging in it today and found large pieces of decaying wood.

I asked if she had planted tomatoes in it last year and she said

6 plants were stunted in growth and put on 2 to 3 small tomatoes that did not grow, then turned brown and died. When we pulled them out the roots were not developed and looked crumped together without small roots growing off them. My 2 Big Beef did produce some tomatoes but not as big as they usually are. Same thing with my herbs, a couple of the hot peppers did produce but the plant did not thrive.

She said that other plants started to grow but then shriveled and turned brown.

It definitely sounds toxic but she got a refund check today! Yea.

I wonder if they could dilute it and then grow and discard a cover crop to further pull out nutrients?

[Dutch]

My gut feeling is that the N is probably not low in that mix. Corn is in the grass family and sweet corn may grow well in that mix. If your friend is in to sweet corn, I would suggest trying to grow a variety like Mirai which was developed at a farm in Harvard, Illinois. http://www.twingardenfarms.com/
Quite a few seed companies sell it. I would suggest that your friend check around for best prices. It is the only sweet corn I grow.
As a side note, I am not associated with Mirai corn or Twin Garden Farms in any way shape or form.
Dutch