Huh? True Black Brandywine

[tomatoaddict]

(***sighs as she is writing all this down)

[carolyn137]

Valhrona,

****

I so very sorry and feel the guilt welling up within me but I misspelled that variety above. It's Valrhona.

[Tom Wagner]

I am not a historian, nor do I want to be. I don't have the resources, nor the inclination to delve into inane trivial pursuits as is so often the case. Not to say that I don't collect inane trivia myself at times. I did have in my limited portfolio something about the Fejee Improved tomato variety. I am trying to keep folks from unintentionally bad mouthing others,(at least today) and to restore genteel civilities among discussion topics.

If this document helps anyone here soften a herd mentality of potentially flaming any person, regardless of that person's record, so be it. I found something that perhaps gives some credence to a descriptor if nothing else.

Fejee Improved.

Is it brown, pink, red, black, etc.?

dreth2-1.JPG

Maroon? What would that color be especially in context of its day? I was curious as to the actual color described in the Landreth 1884 publication.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroon_(color)

brownish to purplish red color.
The first recorded use of Maroon as a color name in English was in 1789.
Hex triplet
#800000

Tom Wagner

[carolyn137]

Maroon? What would that color be especially in context of its day? I was curious as to the actual color described in the Landreth 1884 publication.


*****

Probably a shade of pink Tom for back then the word purple was also used to describe pink tomatoes, and it's a fine line between maroon/pink/ purple as I see it and as others in the past saw it. Our choice of color adjectives today is not always what it was in the past.

I had typed out the description of Large Red Fejee from the Michigan State Bulletin, with references going back to 1863, and the color was described as pink, but lost the whole darn thing when that PM message popped up and I went to read it.

And it turns out there are two Fejees, one from the island and one from Italy, and I have other references to share, but it's been a long day here and I'm going to bed.

Again, my assumption is that anything from that time period that says improved doesn't mean a color change, just selections for earliness or less blemishes, or the like, again based on info in the Michigan State Bulletin as well as current terminology. I haven't researched Fejee Improved, which as I said above, if described as maroon probably was pink/

I think Craig has something at his website about Fejee if I remember correctly, and maybe he'll pick up here where I've left off..

[Tom Wagner]

1868 at which time a Fejee tomato listed:


http://books.google.com/books?id=ASwCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=Landre th's+fejee&source=web&ots=DNqchlYQDo&sig=RSJfUe9BA fmcbDcGI1jbDIB1zWY

A link to the fascination of the name Fejee:

In 1842, Barnum introduced his first major hoax at his museum, the bogus "Fejee" mermaid, which he leased from fellow museum owner Moses Kimball of Boston, who became his good friend, confidant, and collaborator. He justified his hoaxes or "humbugs" as "advertisements to draw attention...to the Museum. I don't believe in duping the public, but I believe in first attracting and then pleasing them."

Fejee Island in the Pacific, possibly the origin of the mermaid?


Image of a fejee:
http://www.missioncreep.com/mundie/gallery/fejee.jpg

Fejee Island tomato
Variété citée dans le catalogue "Garden, Field and Flower Seeds" de Robert C. Reeves' de New York Cty en 1876.



Sounds like a lot of Fejee types of tomatoes were in vogue during the 1800's. My guess is that Maroon had a meaning closer to brown than it does today. How can one disprove that Maroon was not a brown tomato? If such a color as Maroon/brown existed in that day, would it not transmit the segregation of the "black" to the Black Brandywine? I find that the terms maroon, black, brown, dusky, smoky, etc., are confusing to today's populace, therefore ditto to the previous generations.



I am trying to find the archives of Landreth's hundreds of varieties that were not commercially listed. Does someone else have access to those lists?

Does anyone have historical information from the:

http://www.landrethseeds.com
and if so, maybe they could share an enlightenment?

I find it uniquely fair that we can write about the dichotomies of tomato history and that we are gracious enough to allow for alternate histories, and accept the dualities of those scenarios to exist without our adverse editing. It may create a muddle of history, but to take any history to heart still necessitates a grain of salt or two.

Tom Wagner

[carolyn137]

If this document helps anyone here soften a herd mentality of potentially flaming any person, regardless of that person's record, so be it. I found something that perhaps gives some credence to a descriptor if nothing else.


****

Tom, with the words you used suggesting that flaming was going on or it was potentially possible, I find it difficult to continue posting in this thread lest I be accused of flaming someone. I cautioned accepting all the Will has said and published, nothing more, but to continue would not be in my best interest or you's, or anyone elses.

I too spent some time looking at definitions of the word maroon, and they're all over the lot. And as you've pointed out, what maroon meant then and what it means now are debateable.

I was going to type out the description and history in the 1939 Michigan State Bulletin, but when it says that Fejee was pink, I know you'd say that b/c your Landreth description said maroon that pink was not right. I think they used the term pink in the 1939 sense of pink, but also gave references back to 1863.

And then we'd be back to square one re color and trying to figure out which color Fejee was used initially that led to Will's Grandfather obtaining that variety. Will has had his grandfather's collection since the early 90's and even sent me some peas from it since he had trouble germinating them, and I couldn't either.

So having something from the early 90's and only now revealing a true BB is a problem for me.

As far as Landreth is concerned, I contacted them in the mid-90's about a tomato variety called Landreth that was obtained from the USDA, to get more information.

I was unable to do so. I can't remember right now exactly what they said, but it was something like only one person, an older gentleman, had access to the vault where the old seed catalogs were kept, and I don't remember the rest.

If you want to pursue it with Landreth, the situation might be different today.

But if any of us Google Fejee we'll find different information re color, the number of possible varieties that were called Fejee and on and on.

For that reason I don't think we can backtrack effectively and it still leaves me wondering since Will has had that seed collection since the early 90's.

So please continue if you wish, I understand why you're doing so, but as for me, I don't see that there will ever be consensus on this subject, I don't want to be accused of flaming, which I haven't been doing, only with others cautioning folks that not everything Will says has turned out to be what it is, so I'm bowing out.

[dice]

Feejee: pink
Feejee Improved: some interpretation of "maroon",
and likely a selection of Feejee

It is possible that Baker Creek's and Seeds by Design's
Black Brandywine are different cultivars. Is the latter
even stable? (I remember seeing both "superb" and "yuk"
descriptions of it.)

A comparative growout will probably be able to tell if
they are different, but it looks like the history will always
be just the word of one man that does not have
universal credibility. (Heck, there may be other "Black
Brandywines" floating around that were chance crosses
with pink Brandywine and some random dark fruited
cultivar in some seed saver's garden or field, where
the grower just wrote down "Black Brandywine" when
he/she saved seeds or gave some to friends.)

[tomatoaddict]

I never got the sense that anyone was doing any flaming of anyone. I felt like all concerned were bending over backwards to find the answer to this puzzle.

I find it uniquely fair that we can write about the dichotomies of tomato history and that we are gracious enough to allow for alternate histories, and accept the dualities of those scenarios to exist without our adverse editing. It may create a muddle of history, but to take any history to heart still necessitates a grain of salt or two.

With all due respect to you Tom, I hate fake histories. Especially ones that someone intentionally makes up to sell or promote a tomato. Not suggesting that this was done in this case, but I think that practice is especially harmful.

[cdntomato]

Dice, I doubt that the two 'Black Brandywine' varieties are the same and hence the addition of 'True' may have been deemed necessary. But you are right in suggesting that a side-by-side comparison might be prudent.

I am academically oriented particularly when it comes to history and its interpretation. Academic rigor and honesty are important, nay vital. When one publishes, one should assume that peers in the field will scrutinize and possibly debate one's position. Differences in opinion and interpretation are par for the course. That said, vigorous debate can be both refreshing and revealing.

I trust that no one else will post personal attacks. Personal attacks are VERY different than debating issues of fact or interpretation for the benefit of all.

Thank you.
Jennifer

[dice]

That said, vigorous debate can be both refreshing and
revealing.

Sure. I was just summing up.

If the history of True Black Brandywine is invented,
turning up Feejee Improved from the literature as
the alleged non-Brandywine parent is quite a feat
of research itself: a possibly dark-pigmented
late-19th, early-20th century cultivar that no one
can disprove as the source of the "black" in
True Black Brandywine because no one alive has
ever seen it growing.

[JereGettle]

I hate to see the the way people take apart William Woys Weaver online, A man I have found to be very kind, gentle and a great historian, it is easy to do this when people are not in the habit of defending themselves, I like Will have found mistakes in the research of several here, I also collect catalogs, and am working to bring all these to the web so the research won't be left just to the "experts" but every gardener can read for themselves, why can't gardeners just work to save our food heritage instead of debating the Feejee tomato? (I dare say Will has done more reseach on this tomato than all here combined) Yes, Will, Craig, Jere, Kent, and Amy can all make mistakes.. and we do every day, but lets all try to be friends, Americans and researchers.

Happy Planting, We are under 2" of Ice right now!

Jere

[carolyn137]

We are under 2" of Ice right now!

****

Ice storm here as well and my fingers are crossed since if the power goes out it's no fun being in this walker.

Jere, I figured you'd post in this thread sometime, so thanks for your viewpoint.

[tomatoaddict]

Hi Jere. I bought these seeds from you and will be planting them out this year. I personally have no opinion of W3 as I had never heard of him until this thread. I think most of us are very into saving our food heritage. I just seem to have the need to be very meticulous with the histories. For me, it's just like any other kind of history, you want it to be correct. I am not saying TBBW has a fake history, I have no idea. When I ask questions about the background of tomatoes it's because I really want to know not because I am challenging the history. I am not enough of an expert to challenge any lineage of a tomato. I am open minded and am willing to hear what all say. I wish W3 would come here and post about this one. Not so an argument would start just so I could hear what he has to say too.
Congrats on your new baby girl!

[Tom Wagner]

Reading the various messages regarding the True Black Brandywine; its history and the placement of this tomato variety as a distinct variety characterized uniquely apart from the 'other' Black Brandywine requires one to step back and summarize what is known to date. I have Black Brandywine from different sources, but I don't yet know which 'clone' I have of what likely appears to be two strains? The most recent Black Brandywine I have been using for breeding is from Salt Springs Island in B.C.


Should Jere or William Woys Weaver supply all of the pertinent data about the True Black Brandywine? Perhaps. I will in their absence of supplying documents summarize what I know to date.


True Black Brandywine



1.Bred sometime in the late 1920s by Harold E. Martin
2.Black Brandywine was a controlled cross between Brandywine and the original brown Beefsteak tomato otherwise known as Fejee Improved
3.Fejee Improved is probably extinct
4.If extinct, why are the varieties called Beefsteak today red and not brown?
5.Feejee, it’s also often spelled Fiji or Fejee


Feejee Improved


1.Several other seed catalogs other than Landreths that describe it as maroon not purple or purple-pink
2. Maroon is a fixed Victorian color
3. Maroon is indeed reddish brown, the color of raw steak and that is likely why the tomato got the name Beefsteak
4. Feejee Island (a parent) also known as Lester's Perfected listed as pinkish-red.
5.Beefsteak (Feejee Improved) was a different tomato variety created out of Feejee Island.
6.There is no record of the other parent or if it was a mutation.
7.This cross (mutation) had to have happened before 1869 because the name Beefsteak was given to it by Campbell at that time
8.The commercial release of the variety came much later than its existence among Jersey tomato growers
9. The name Feejee, (1860s and 1870s) was equated with cannibalism.



Tom Wagner

[Earl]

Here's some links to limited Fejee info from 1800s.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fyp...H9X4#PPA222,M1

http://books.google.com/books?id=NbU...0y11rbYcsyMk2U

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...=us&lr=lang_en

http://books.google.com/books?id=sqY...A#PRA2-PA78,M1

http://books.google.com/books?id=Xh8...#PRA1-PA300,M1

http://books.google.com/books?id=ios...v10ISuqrOtsY7E