Grandma Gina and uncle Steve may have crossed.

[rxkeith]

i am getting a fair amount of seed from the bean cross, more than i was expecting
given the frost we got about ten days ago. beans left out have dried down to leathery
stage which is good enough for seed saving.


the surprise i am seeing is not all seeds are the same.
most of the seeds look like what i planted, dark blue/black with light brown
mottling. i am also getting all blue/black seeds similar to grandma gina, and seeds
that look like uncle steve seeds, light tan with purple whorls.
the bean pods that are a lighter green color are giving me light plum purple seeds.
the beans are growing on a separate fence so no chance of getting mixed up with grandma gina or uncle steve both of which i am growing.


i think i remember reading that with a bean cross, according to one of our bean experts, what you get is a stable cross right off the bat unlike a tomato cross
that has to be stabilized to f7 or f8. is that correct?

so what gives?





keith

[Tormato]

Are these seeds completely mature and completely dry?

My experience with black seeded varieties, is that slightly immature seeds will either be light purple or light blue.

[rxkeith]

gary,


i thought about that.
none of the bean pods had dried down as i would have liked. frost prevented that
from happening. that doesn't explain the seeds that look like uncle steve beans.
every seed i planted on the fence looked like the seeds i mailed you. dark blue/black
with lighter brown mottling. the beans that the lighter purple seeds came from looked a little different. pods weren't quite as wide as the other beans and didn't have the
purple streaks right off the bat.
i have seeds that look like each parent, seeds that look like the crossed seeds i planted, and the lighter purple seeds. i wasn't expecting that.

i don't have enough bean genetics knowledge to explain it.






keith

[Fusion_power]

What you are seeing is typical of beans, but is confusing because it represents something you have not experienced before. The seed testa of a bean is maternal tissue, meaning that it is derived from the mother plant and therefore does NOT represent the genetics of the seed inside. For this reason, the original crossed seed looked just like your Uncle Steve's because it had the seed coat of the mother plant. For the same reason, when you grew that crossed seed last year, the testa colors represented the color of the maternal plant which grew from the f1 seed. This year growing F2 seed , you recovered the seed coat color of both original parents, the seed coat color produced on seed from the F1 plant, plus a few with mixed traits like blue with swirls etc. It will get really interesting if you grow some of segregating seed next year because recessives recombine and show up in seed size, testa color, flavor, etc.

The way I work from that kind of cross is to find the individual plants with traits I want to propagate and grow them out. On average, about 3 plants out of a hundred are really worth saving and growing because they carry a unique combination of traits.

I will give a really good example from my growout this year of a cross between Fortex and PI207373 (a small black bean with intense purple pods). I am attempting to bring high disease tolerance from PI207373 into a long high quality bean like Fortex. This year, I grew a row with roughly 100 F3 plants. F3 is where most of the recombination of traits shows up with beans because you can see the recessive traits. I got plenty of purple pod beans and some with green pods, but I also got two totally unexpected beans. One is a beautiful red snap bean, the other is a yellow snap bean. Neither parent showed red or yellow in any way. But when I made the cross and started growing out the offspring, the result was this:

http://www.selectedplants.com/miscan....29.beans3.jpg

[rxkeith]

thanks, for the explanation.

that answers some questions.
makes me wonder though how the heck to identify individual plants
with superior genetics when the vines are all entwined on the bean fence.
sounds like i should plant a mix of the f3 seeds rather than just one color
type, and see what i get, eh. i would also have to get busy with the roto tiller
to grow a hundred plants of just the cross along with everything else thats growing.
one thing i can say about the cross so far is very few seeds have split seed coats.
we have had above average rain for the year so would not have been surprised to
see more than i did.

at what filial generation can i expect to see a stable bean variety? tomatoes are
f7 to f8 depending. are beans similar?
it will be interesting to see what happens, that is for sure.



keith

[Fusion_power]

The thing with bean crosses is that you have to be very observant. I had a row growing of the crossed seed that was somewhat intertwined. Since PI207373 is not a snap type bean, and one of my desired traits is a snap bean, I watched the crossed plants carefully for any beans that showed snap bean traits. That is how I first spotted the red bean plant.


How long it takes to stabilize any cross entirely depends on how many traits you are selecting for and whether they are recessive or not. It is much easier to stabilize recessive traits. Also, with any breeding effort, making a cross of necessity compromises traits such as bean length in the Fortex hybrid. It is nearly guaranteed that I will have to make a backcross to Fortex to get back the bean length that I want. In your cross, the number of compromised traits is limited because the parents are highly similar. You could for example select a bean similar to Uncle Steve's with larger seed and higher productivity with flat pods. That would be far easier to achieve than in my case with a cross involving a small disease tolerant dry bean with a highly selected stringless very long snap bean. I am selecting for any color other than purple, long snap phenotype, excellent flavor, and most important, very high levels of disease resistance. To more directly answer your question, you can probably stabilize something interesting in 5 generations. I will probably have something interesting in 7 or 8 generations and then will have to backcross and do another 5 or 6 generations to get a stable line with the desired traits.

[rxkeith]

thanks again darrel, i appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience in
plant breeding. me, i'm just a backyard putzer with a chance cross thinking, wow,
neato, now what?

goals, i suppose would be a good tasting snap bean, earlier maturing so i can save
seeds. probably will be a flat pod, since both parents are flat, and pods will be
purple streaked at some stage of maturity. never know what any lurking recessive
traits might show up. with two great tasting parents, i should come up with something worthwhile.

i had thought about a cross of the two beans in the past, wondering what would
result. now, i have one. it will be fun to see what happens.




keith

[rxkeith]

my grandma gina/uncle steve cross seems to tolerate cooler weather as well as
my uncle steve bean. once again, i had bad luck with the weather. bean seeds were planted early june with temps in the 70s, and 80s. a few days later, that east wind
kicked up, and it went down into the 50s for a few days, and rained. not very friendly bean weather. some varieties planted came up poorly and looking rough. uncle steve
came up fine as did the cross. nearly every seed planted came up. i planted about eighty seeds, maybe more of the four different seed types from the cross.

planted are a medium purple seed that produced a later maturing green bean with
very little purple mottling. this one could be a challenge saving seed year to year.
also planted are a brown with black mottling seed, a black seed similar to grandma gina, and a light tan seed with purple whorls similar to uncle steve. the beans that produced those three seed types all appeared similar to each other. they were a flat pod green bean with purple streaks or whorls that were closer in size to uncle steve, maybe 7 to 9 inches long. grandma gina is huge, maybe a foot long bean with pods being an inch wide. i should have plenty of beans to eat, and also to save seed from.
can't wait to try them.

hey gary, were you able to get the seeds i sent you in the ground?


keith

[rxkeith]

well, i have beans.


i am seeing plain green romano beans with slight differences in width. also getting
the green with purple streaks with two or three variations in either the color green
of the pod or width of the bean. some of the wider flat pods look pretty good.
i have only tried a few raw of each type. none have made it to the kitchen.

now, its a race against time to get seeds saved before the weather changes, not
even going to say that word. cool weather in june delayed seeds going in, and germinating. hot, and dry weather made the beans struggle to grow, and produce.
i am hoping for a long enough stretch of warm weather at the tail end of the season
to allow me to get seeds. it might be close.






keith

[rxkeith]

i have just picked a nice bag of mature beans for seed saving. big sigh of relief.
we have had rather nice weather into october this year. normally we have had a frost
or two or three.....


i have a few plants that produced some nice fat romano type beans that are green, and purple streaked that i want to carry forward. seed color varies between a larger uncle steve look a like to a cranberry looking bean with white speckles.


i also have a green romano type that only starts streaking with purple at late maturity. seed color is either a lighter plum purple or black. the larger of the two seem to be the plum color type. this one took a little while longer to get growing, and
producing. in a normal weather year, saving seed might be a challenge.



there are a few other variations of bean out there, but these two seem to be the most promising to pursue.


no beans from the cross made it into the pot this year due to seed saving concerns.
i did sample some of each type raw in the garden.





keith

[rxkeith]

here we are again.


i picked my first bag o beans for eating. pole beans are behind this year. seed
saving is a big question mark right now, totally dependent on the weather. no frost
till october, maybe i have a chance, total crap shoot.


one type is a flat green romano type bean. this one is later maturing than the others. seed saving will be iffy year to year for me.

there appears to be about three variations of beans that are colored like uncle steve,
but look like grandma gina in form. some pods are wider, some with a slight curve, and others that are more or less straight. texture varies from soft and supple to crispy when sampled off the vine.
darryl said watch out for a particular plant that has superior qualities, but i am
having some difficulty with that. they all seem pretty ok to me.
i am kicking around the idea of sending seed out for others with a longer growing season to grow out to hasten the stabilizing process in the event i can't seeds.
still on the fence right now.
at any rate, i haven't come across a dud in the bunch so far.




keith

[MrsJustice]

Well this week I have been saving Cushaw Squash Seeds. I am already buy "Weed Control Fabric" for next year. If you grow Broccoli next year use ground covers. I am also working on the loam dirt on my farm for next year as I harvest all of my historical Vegetables and Tomatoes. I have one BIg Big WaterMelon that took off after I put down ground covers around that area of my Farm. This has been a Strange Farming Season.

Just do not give up OK, Amen!!

[rxkeith]

well, big relief



i will have seeds for this year. i picked a bunch today due to rain tomorrow, and i
will be working, and then possibly a low of 35 or so friday. i hedged my bets by
picking some now. they are not dry pods, but they are at the leathery stage, and
the seed coats are showing their colors, so i should be good. the rest will hang until
the weather gets nasty cold. beans can take a bit of cold.

i have a good number of beans grandma gina size with uncle steve purple on the pods. i am hoping to stabilize them and reduce the seed splitting in the pods that grandma gina is prone to do. kind of a mixed bag right now.
flavor is very good.
once i have a line stable, we'll have to come up with a name, and start dispersing it.






keith

[Zeedman]

Glad you mentioned the seed saving issue with Grandma Gina. I grew it this year for the first time. The source had trouble with a large percentage of the seed splitting/sprouting. I grew it in a warmer location (South side of a building) hoping the extra heat would overcome the sprouting issue. It did - but for me, a very large percentage is deformed, under-developed seed. I've got a tub full of pods drying, but after A LOT of effort, I'll be lucky to get a hand full of good seed. Too bad, because this would otherwise be a great bean.

[rxkeith]

yeah, grandma gina would be great if it wasn't for the seed splitting issue.
i have tried picking them at different stages, and it doesn't seem to matter.
heat isn't happening here most years once late september rolls around.
if it was warmer, and drier, which it aint, the pods would maybe dry down faster..
some beans of the cross, every seed was split. this is more common in the big fat pods. other pods are fine. it varies.






keith