Germination Testing

[amideutch]

Carolyn, this seems to be a problem that has come up in the last 6 months. I have no Idea of the type equipment used by the postal systems that sorts and speeds our mail along it's merry way. But one thing I do know is technology is always changing and the equipment the mail movers are using is also being upgraded constantly. The only thing is which side of the pond is it happening at? Ami

[Tania]

Originally Posted by amideutch

Carolyn, this seems to be a problem that has come up in the last 6 months. I have no Idea of the type equipment used by the postal systems that sorts and speeds our mail along it's merry way. But one thing I do know is technology is always changing and the equipment the mail movers are using is also being upgraded constantly. The only thing is which side of the pond is it happening at? Ami

Ami, I totally agree with you on this.

I personally do not think any bubble wrap mailer is necessary to send a small amount of tomato or pepper seeds, but it sure helps if some soft padding is added and seed packets are taped securely inside so they do not 'stack up'. I use several layers of paper towel, and sometimes add one think layer of bubble wrap, which is a very inexpensive alternative to bubble mailers that works wonderfully. Not using paper bags also helps, as plastic baggies may be sealed with some air inside and it will act a natural padding and will protect the seeds.

My point is everyone can package the seeds better and avoid the crashing damage without making it more expensive. Same cost, better seeds germination .

I know this may be a sensitive topic for many, but I would like to bring it up nevertheless.
It is also very important that the folks report the issues with the seed germination. This will help:

• vendors to locate a 'bad' lot and stop offering it or improve packaging options
• seed traders to stop passing around the seeds from another trader that were already damaged in shipping
• all of us to improve our packaging techniques

I sure would love to hear if my seeds germinate as well as I think they should, and if they actually grow true to type! Please do not think that you may hurt my feelings reporting the issues. It will help me to avoid upsetting more folks with potentially 'bad' seeds, which is the key!

And, germination tests are always a good idea before sending seeds around! It is so easy to do, and you only sacrifice a few seeds. I do the same that Ami illustrated above so well. For potato leaf varieties, I may also make 1 step further and get these sprouts to the first true leaf to see if they come 'true to type' (at least as far as leaf type goes), which increases my confidence level that the seeds were not crossed in my garden. Depending on when I do this, I may throw the sprouts away, or I may put them into a pot and continue growing.

Carolyn, over the last 2 years of seed transactions, I have seen quite a bit of damaged seeds. Most (if not all) of the damage occurred with the seeds sent in the paper bags with no padding, and worst was for these sent in paper bags AND in a 'christmas' card.

Just my $0.02
Tania

[dice]

Postal equipment has not sat still as far as what kind of
technology they employ over the time that Carolyn has
been sending seeds. Newer equipment could be harder on
them than what they were using 20 years ago or even
a decade ago.

I think just thicker foam should work, 1/8"-1/4" (at least that
is what I have been using, padding one side, simply because
I tend to have pieces of 3/32"-1/4" thick stuff sitting around
that came in a box of something).

Anyway, a bubble envelope will certainly do the job of
protecting seeds.

[carolyn137]

Dice and others, I am still sendiong out lots of seed and have every year up until now and my comment stands as to crushed seeds. Just b'c I'm so old, doesn't mean that I'm relying on info from the dark age USPS sorting machines.

Tania, I can't remember right now which Forum the thread is in, but you said that you thought the Gold Ball seeds you got from my seed offer were crushed and I asked you about all the other varieties that were sent at the same time in the same envelope as to germination. And I don't think I've seen your answer, and as I said, I can't remember where all this was posted. My bad.

So please let me know about all the seeds that I sent you and also if you'd like me to send you more Gold Ball seeds, in an envelope the same as I sent out to you and all others.

[amideutch]

Tania, do you remember what shape the seeds I sent you were in? BTW, I just ordered my Carson MM-740 digital microscope from amazon.com. Nothing elaborate but good enough to satisfy my needs and not break my pocket book.
Ami
http://www.carsonoptical.com/Pocket_...oscopes/MM-740

[Tania]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Dice and others, I am still sendiong out lots of seed and have every year up until now and my comment stands as to crushed seeds. Just b'c I'm so old, doesn't mean that I'm relying on info from the dark age USPS sorting machines.

Tania, I can't remember right now which Forum the thread is in, but you said that you thought the Gold Ball seeds you got from my seed offer were crushed and I asked you about all the other varieties that were sent at the same time in the same envelope as to germination. And I don't think I've seen your answer, and as I said, I can't remember where all this was posted. My bad.

So please let me know about all the seeds that I sent you and also if you'd like me to send you more Gold Ball seeds, in an envelope the same as I sent out to you and all others.

Carolyn,

I only started Gold Ball seeds (all 22) as they were older. That was 3 weeks ago, so far 0% germination and damage signs on some seeds that I looked at closely. Haven't started the other 3 varieties yet - this or next weekend it'll be.

Tania

[Tania]

Originally Posted by amideutch

Tania, do you remember what shape the seeds I sent you were in? BTW, I just ordered my Carson MM-740 digital microscope from amazon.com. Nothing elaborate but good enough to satisfy my needs and not break my pocket book.
Ami
http://www.carsonoptical.com/Pocket_...oscopes/MM-740

Ami,

Yours looked good, but I have not started any yet. Your seeds were in plastic bags, which always worked fine for me.

Tania

[dice]

I can report some cracked seeds in Carolyn's seeds from last
year (Red Brandywine, Huge Black, Orange-1, and Marizol
Gold; I don't remember any in the Dr. Carolyn Pink seeds),
because I just sprouted them recently. It was not all of them,
certainly, because some of each of those sprouted, but I could
definitely see the ones that had been crushed on the wet paper
towel. (The seed hull separates where it is cracked as it soaks
up water, and you can see some of inner part of the seed, but
you can wait weeks without ever seeing those particular seeds
start a root.)

[amideutch]

Isn't it funny what we find when we start looking for something and know what that something is. Thank you to Tania who initially brought this problem to light and Ted for reinforcing it with his analytical inspection of my seeds. Until now how many people would actually inspect for or suspect damaged seeds for non germination problems. It's always been, well it must be a bad seed. Not, why is it a bad seed.
And I would be willing to bet in 99% of the cases when seed is received as a gift or in trade, germination problems will not be reported. But hopefully that will change. And I'm glad to hear we have a person out there who is very knowledgeable on mail sorting machines. Ami

[Tania]

Carolyn,

I started your Gianinni and Lincoln Adams seeds today - I will report on germination soon. The seeds looked good, so I have a feeling that everything should be fine.

I can certainly retry Gold Ball, but maybe next year, so I am not sure if I should take you up on your kind offer again

Tania

[Linda10]

Carolyn,

I have been waiting for your thread about germination on the seed you sent out in December to report. I don't usually look in this topic, but just happened to find this thread.

Out of the 5 seed packets you sent this year, I planted all of the seed.

Giannini had 0 germination
Ashleigh had 1 out of 5
Ceman had 1 out of 5
Orange Minsk had 1 out of 5
Indiana Red had 1 out of 5

All of my other varieties for this year were planted at the same time with no problems, except for 2 varieties which also came in the mail this year from a trade.

Since I have received seeds from you many times in the past with mostly 100% germination, I really do think something different is happening in the postal system.

I have a friend in a different city who also was in on your seed offer, so I called her to see if she was having any problems. She also reported that all her other seeds germinated as usual, but that she had the same problem with the ones from your seed offer... no germination or at most, 1 germinated out of 5.

By the way, all of my other seeds were from either saved seed or ones I had from more than a year ago.

Hope this helps to add to the detective work

Edited to add: Carolyn's packing method had already been explained. The other problem seeds were packed in a plastic baggie and I used up ALL the seeds over 3 attempts to germinate. My friend managed to get one to germinate out of 15

[ContainerTed]

Tania, Svalli, and Robin. I would be curious about the TPS I sent you. That seed had arrived here in a small bubble envelope and then was sent out in normal envelopes. I don't know the history before I received it, but the condition when it arrived with you folks might shed some light.

Ted

[ContainerTed]

Okay, Here's what I've been looking at under the scope.

Hope you can see these. This is "hand held digital camera" shooting down thru a normal lens on a binocular microscope.

The first picture is Indiana Red and shows cracks. The entire top-left edge of the seed has separated and is exposing germplasm. And there's another crack at the bottom right.

The second picture is Sara's Galapagos and shows seeds with fractures causing lost material at the tips

The third picture is Golden Cherokee and shows what alerted me in the first place. The seed at the bottom left separated into halves while I was trying to get it under the scope. I opened the crack on the seed on the right to better show the germplasm.

While inspecting my saved seeds and those received in trades, I couldn't help but notice that many seeds showed up as little "fat-bellied" hairy disks. In contrast, most of the Cherokee Gold seem to lack this "fat-belly" and some showed the opposit - a flat or indented belly area. A couple even looked "ironed" flat. I'll try again to get one to stand up long enough to get a picture.

What is not shown here is any seed that simply was squeezed enough to damage the germplasm, but not enough to display physical damage externally. It is a preliminary opinion, but I'm seeing a lot of seeds received throught the postal systems in standard envelopes that just seem to be "flatter" than my home saved seeds that I am using as my "bench mark". I want to develop more data before I take a firm position on that one.

Anyhow, I hope this helps.

Ted

[ddsack]

In the past , I also have occasionally received traded seeds in plain envelopes that clearly were crushed in the mail process. Usually this has happened when there are many small quantities attached and folded into a larger sheet of paper. Maybe only 3-5 little packets are severely affected, out of the 10 or so sent. I assumed that the pressure point was the top of the envelope, since that's where the post office runs their date stamp imprint.

If packers could try to fold, or position the seeds so that they do not rest within the top 1 1/2" of the envelope, where the machine stamp runs, it would be interesting to see if this would make a difference. Also, folding in a kleenex type tissue would add cushion.

Don't know how many other machines are involved in mail sorting, or how they grab or compress the letters, so it's possible there are other places crushing could occur.

[Tania]

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

Tania, Svalli, and Robin. I would be curious about the TPS I sent you. That seed had arrived here in a small bubble envelope and then was sent out in normal envelopes. I don't know the history before I received it, but the condition when it arrived with you folks might shed some light.

Ted

Ted,

Yesterday when i was checking the trays, I noticed 2 sprouts in the potato dance seed tray. I will check again later today, but so far so good.

Tania