2009 Surprises

[stormymater]

I got poor germination from my Mule Team (Heirloomtomatoes) too - 2/7 first planting, waiting to see what happens with second - much denser sowing.

[geeboss]

I too had issues with Mule Team with very small weak looking seedlings..... I ended up sowing all the seeds and came up with 2 seedlings of normal size. Luckily they are still in the house and not outside as we had another killing freeze again last night here in N VA. Looking forward to enjoying some maters from those 2 seedlings.

George

[dice]

Siberian: 8 seeds, 6 sprouts, all PL (this is the little RL
determinate, not the rugose leaved "Siberia" dwarf),
seeds from a trade.

They were right next to a pair of seed cells of seeds that
are PL and are supposed to be, so I resowed another batch
to make sure that I did not simply write down the wrong thing
in my seed starting location map for those two. Second batch
of "Not Siberian PL" has not sprouted yet.

Like Tania says, this is likely a seed mixup if these are indeed
all PL. (A chance F1 cross from an RL parent would still be RL,
and the grower would usually have noticed the difference in
the plants or fruit when saving seeds.)

[Tania]

Originally Posted by stormymater

I got poor germination from my Mule Team (Heirloomtomatoes) too - 2/7 first planting, waiting to see what happens with second - much denser sowing.

My Mule Team from Heirloomtomatoes.net from 2005 had 67% germination this year, which is very good, given the seed age (they are probably 2004 or older).

[jcmorse33]

"Suprises" for me this year include a tricot in one of my dwarf project seedlings. A number of obviously crossed dwarf seedlings (wrong leaf type or not dwarf at all). And what looks to be some crossed Royal Hillbilly seed. Though I am hoping one of the two Royal Hillbilly I potted up is correct. I've posted a screenshot in a new thred to see if anyone growing Royal Hillbilly and take a peak and compare with their own seedlings to let me know which is correct.

[frogsleap farm]

Little Beauty King (from SSE member) 2 RL and 1 PL. I'm guessing the PL was a handling error a one end or the other, but maybe I'll be lucky and it's a mutation.

[carolyn137]

I'm wondering if it's a good idea for folks to name commercial seed sources as the source of their wrong varieties, aka surprises.

I ask b'c for several years I did a Wrong varieties thread at GW and I had volunteered to contact the places from which folks got their wrong varieties and yes, at that time they were naming the commercial sources.

And I had volunteered b'c I knew the owners of many of the commercial places.

And I had volunteered to do the contacting b'c I knew from e-mails I was receiving that many folks, for whatever reason, didn't want to do the contacting themselves.

But, when I started doing that most of the commercial sources were very upset about it and asked very strongly if folks receiving something wrong would contact them directly and not post about it publicaly.

They can check then check their records and determine if the person had purchased seed from them and then interact directly with that person in terms of replacement seed, etc.

In one case I remember that the person reporting a wrong variety had named one source when indeed it wasn't that source at all b/c there was no record of the person buying seeds from them.

And when I did those Wrong varieties threads I asked that only commercial sources be involved and that any seeds received in trade from others be handled by directly contacting the person who sent the seeds in trade.

As one commercial seed source said to me......they felt it was courtesy, at the very least, for persons to inform them directly of any problems.

I never did another wrong varieties thread after doing two in a row. I thought I was helping others avoid certain commercial sources that were selling wrong varieties for specific varieties or no or low germinating seed, b'c sometimes that was also reported.

So just something to think about and if it didn't concern me, having been through this before, I wouldn't have posted this and have been somewhat conflicted in even doing it now.

But I do think it's important enough , for me at least having had the experience I had, and I hope for some of you, for me to at least post this now.

Most commercial sellers of seeds really want the opportunity to interact directly with the person who has the problem, that I know.

And of course I know that no one would ever name private individuals that they got wrong seeds from in public.

Thanks for at least considering what I'm saying.

[montanamato]

Another point of view...
Most of us are seeding large numbers of varieties at a time...I think it is not out of the realm to expect the person who seeded to make a mistake occassionally....
I often regrow the same seeds another year to make sure I didn't have a stray seed under my fingernail etc...
I know some people only sow one variety at a time etc. and can claim to not be responsible, but for a lot of us there may be a rare mix up...
I would hate to implicate a company and the mistake was mine...

Jeanne

[ContainerTed]

I used some cardstock construction paper to cover all the cells in a sheet/tray except the one I'm working on. I also count the seeds I take out of the packet and verify that count in the cell before covering the seeds. I have rigid postitive controls on the seeds I save and those coming in the mail. The primary thought I have is to not get in a hurry at any time about any thing.

Regarding Carolyn's point about posting sources, here's my thoughts.

I think this website was born to allow folks to exchange their knowledge about their gardens and to help each other have better gardens. This open discussion format is a great learning platform. We help each other to make ourselves better. I am reluctant to ever think about putting any form of limitation on that. Sometimes, just coming to this public discussion will help us remember where things came from or how we messed up.

In the case of contacting the seed source, the decision to do so or not still rests with the individual. Seed vendors are very busy, especially this year. Unnecessary interruptions in their day to day processes might generate even more problems for them. If our discussion here can help filter those vendor/source contacts down to legitimate problems before we take up the source's time, then I think we serve everyone well.

JMHO

Ted

[carolyn137]

I would hate to implicate a company and the mistake was mine...

******

Exactly my point Jeanne. Or my mistake or anyones mistake.

Any of us can make mistakes, and do, and so can the various seed companies, which is my concern.

Trust me Ted, knowing the seed company owners that I do they would much rather be aware of a problem than being put out b'c it's a busy time of the year and someone was trying to share with them a seed purity problem.

In the past such problems have led to a commercial source stopping selling seed for a given variety and that's good for all.

And the most recent example of that was with the variety Black Pearl;the thread was in the General Discussion area maybe a month ago or so. Prior to that someone was selling PL Red Brandywine and when notified stopped selling it.

A stray seed is one thing, but when all or a significant proportion of seeds germinated are of the wrong leaf form, that's a real problem.

And even if the leaf form is correct, you never know if you have the right variety until you see the fruit shape and color and size since RL is dominant to PL and if there's been an initial accidental cross between an RL and a PL, then RL dominates in the formation of that initial hybrid.

And I know that Donna at Chuck Wyatt's former seed site had to delete around 30 or more varieties at one time. Chuck was not a well man in the couple of years before he passed on in 2002 and there were significant problems with many varieties as to seed purity.

Ted, of course it's up to an individual as to whether they post the name of company publicaly before attempting to contact the company first. I never said otherwise and free choice always obtains. At the end of my post above I simply asked folks to consider what I was saying.

But if I wasn't concerned about certain seed places getting a bad reputation based on someone posting about one or just a few varieties, I never would have posted this.

And Jeanne also sees where I'm coming from as she posted above, and I cut and pasted, in terms of not the company being at fault, but the person sowing the seeds.

I think we all know that if anything can go wrong, it usually will at some point in time.

[ContainerTed]

Trust me Ted, knowing the seed company owners that I do they would much rather be aware of a problem than being put out b'c it's a busy time of the year and someone was trying to share with them a seed purity problem.
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And what I'm saying is they don't need to be bothered by the "boy who cried wolf". Before they are criticized, some open discussion by "adults" in a "solution-oriented" environment can greatly reduce that unneeded hassle factor.


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But if I wasn't concerned about certain seed places getting a bad reputation based on someone posting about one or just a few varieties, I never would have posted this.
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I agree that reputations should not be carelessly damaged. But if we establish that as a guideline for discussion and debate, then there will be no damage. A company that sees we are trying to give "Quality" feedback is the company I want to do business with.

This subject is truly a "double edged sword". But, I still think the value of "Quality" feedback greatly outweighs the alternatives. It's like the difference between criticism and "constructive" criticism.

I ran my own business and chased a lot of "wild gooses" and treed a lot of possums that were in a different tree. But, in retrospect, I wish I could have put that time wasted into further improving my business's legitimacy in the community. I cared about my customers and they came to my door. I would never have considered telling them to not talk about my business - good or bad.

Carolyn, I think we agree on 99% of everything here. I just think we can talk here, form a concensus, and then let the vendors know what we think may be wrong.

JMHO

Ted

[Tania]

Very good thoughts here - certainly a great food for thought!

I, personally, prefer direct feedback, whether it is done publicly or privately, but I do acknowledge that not everybody appreciate a negative feedback publicly posted. So I should be more careful opening my month next time to mention any places or names - I better go and edit my first post to remove any names.

I also thought that the places like the Garden Watchdog (http://davesgarden.com/products/gwd/) were created to let the folks share their experiences with the vendors, and I have seen enough great vendors to take the feedback and work really hard to address customers concerns - my hat goes off to those folks, Baker Creek being one of them

I had one person notifying me privately about seed damage in the mail, and after the first 10 minutes of being in denial and embarrassed, I started to appreciate this feedback, as it helped me to realize that whatever I was assuming 'to work the way it is' sometimes does not, and I have to do something to fix the problem. If I did not hear about this problem, I would still have been ignorant of it.

The other thing, as we all saw quite a few times, when someone posts some negative experience, there will be a few folks chiming in and sharing their positive experience with the same, which is also great to know, and the reputation may be re-instated just there .

My 0.02 cents (hopefully more later, as I now have to do some work )

Tania

[carolyn137]

Carolyn, I think we agree on 99% of everything here. I just think we can talk here, form a concensus, and then let the vendors know what we think may be wrong.

*****

Yes, I think we do agree, for the most part.

But Tville folks are only a very small audience for the seeds distributed by many commercial places. And it's possible, and I know it's also true, that they would know if others have contacted them about the same problem.

So I think it's darn near impossible to reach a consensus in this thread, but see below my other comments about consensus decisions.

Years ago TGS was sending out a wrong Opalka and those who called them asked if there were any other reports they'd received about it and they said yes.

And ultimately TGS sent correct Opalka seeds the next year to ALL who had ordered those same seeds they knew were wrong.

And the commercial seed sources know that one or two reports back aren't sufficient to constitute a consensus and actually I think I remember Linda at TGS asking for the remaining seeds to be sent back from a few folks so they could check them along with their stock seeds.

And I know the same thing happened with Red Brandywine seeds at another place, not the PL situation I mentioned above. It turned out that the seeds sent out were correct but the person growing them thought the fruits were bigger than they should be. Sigh.

And when I did my wrong varieties thread sometimes there was consensus and sometimes not, just a single report. The consensus situation I remember well was about Cherokee Purple Seeds that Burpee was selling at the time which were very wrong.

Whatever.

[Tania]

Another great example of a great vendor - TGS. Thank you for sharing Carolyn!


Jeanne, if you are reading this - your Zogola seeds came in today, and put into a wet paper towel asap. Thank you so much for this wonderful gift, I hope I will make it up to you one day. I am sure Carolyn's seeds are close by too .

Tania

[montanamato]

Tania...You made it up to me several years ago...You always sent me extra varieties when we traded, and I have many new varieties directly and indirectly related to your tomato obsession...

Jeanne