Culling Purple Haze Seedlings

[jsvand5]

I just planted out two seedlings from seeds that I got from Ray (F3 I think is what Ray told me). I started three seeds and got 2 RL and one PL. I planted one RL, and one PL. Does the PL version produce larger tomatoes or are they all a pretty much large cherry size? Mine were started way late for my zone so I don't know how much production I will get before the heat knocks them out but I am hoping to get at least a few to compare the 2 versions. They seem to be growing very quickly so hopefully they can catch up a bit to the rest of my plants.

[rnewste]

I have been nursing 2 cuttings from F1 plants grown last Fall. Looks like they will be fine for planting out in 2 or 3 weeks.

Regarding last Summer's crop, I had F2 seed that produced 3 RL and 1 PL plant. Surprisingly, the larger tomatoes came from the RL plants. Here is a photo of them July 12:




And again on July 25:



So this Summer's crop should produce F1 and F3 Purple Haze for comparisons.

Ray

[duajones]

I am guessing mine are F3 then

[rnewste]

Duane,

The seeds I sent everybody were F3, saved from the largest tomatoes I had from the RL plant. Original seed F2 came to me from lumierefrere (Barb).

Ray

[lumierefrere]

So it's a crap shoot so to speak as to what you'll get. Am I right? I'd like to go for the smaller rather than larger.

Barb

[rnewste]

Barb,

And my desire was to have the larger "slicers" of Purple Haze.

So from my very limited experience last season, you may want to keep the PL plants as their tomatoes were, on average, a bit smaller than those on my RL plants.

In any event, Thank You for starting all of us off on a "Purple Haze journey" last year, Barb...

Ray

[lumierefrere]

Good advice, Ray. Funny how I got 5 RL and 1 PL from this first set. I'll start some more and I'll give away the RLs I guess. When I read thru the info from Tania--and she got hers from me, too, all the fruit seemed on the small side. So maybe I'll pull out the buckets again and line them up outside the garden. I just don't have very good luck with the bucket method.

Barb

[dice]

You are right that the results are up to chance.

Cherry size is a dominant trait, though, so I would
expect smaller fruited plants to be more numerous
among F2 and F3 plants than medium sized or larger fruit.

Fruit size seems to be independent of leaf type.

[travis]

Originally Posted by lumierefrere

So it's a crap shoot so to speak as to what you'll get. Am I right? I'd like to go for the smaller rather than larger. Barb

Barb,

If you have some original F1 seeds, then plant one or two of them along with some F2, F3, etc. seeds from plants you've selected showing the closest traits you're trying to capture. Then back cross the selected F2s and F3s with pollen from the F1 plant(s) to help fix the characteristics you're shooting for.

[Vince]

"I just planted out two seedlings from seeds that I got from Ray (F3 I think is what Ray told me). I started three seeds and got 2 RL and one PL."

This likely indicates that the RL plant ray saved seed from was heterozygous with respect to leaf shape(as 50% of the plants should be in the F2 Gen.) So Again you should expect 25% PL and 75% RL on large growouts of this F3 seed.

[rnewste]

Hey Vince,

Seems like most folks I sent the F3 seeds to are getting a 4-to-1 ratio of RL vs PL plants. I recall seeing a post where someone who really understands the genetics traits predicted a similar ratio on F3 Purple Haze grow-outs.

Ray

[travis]

I would think that you would get the 25% PL and 75% RL in the F2. That would be fully expected in the F2 of a RL x PL cross.

Then the following season, the F3 seeds saved from the F2 PL plants should be 100% PL, right? The PL should be fixed in the F2 PL expression, I think.

The F3 seeds saved from the remaining (3 of 4) F2 RL plants might have some lurking PL regressive gene pairing, but only one in three RL F2 plants should retain PL regressive gene pairs, right? I mean if you grew enough examples to get a balanced Mendelian square.

So, if you saved F3 seeds from several RL F2 plants and planted a mixed bag, you surely will not get 25% PL to 75% RL in the F3 sprouts, since two in four of the F2 plants ideally should be RL dominant fixed.

I'd say if you were to get 25% PL seedlings from F3 RL seeds, you coincidentally only saved seeds from an F2 PL regressive example of the RL expressions.

[Tania]

Barb,

I hope this link helps to answer some of your questions.
http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Purple_Haze

I had both RL and PL plants in F2 generation. My seeds were from you

It is certainly not 25/75% ratio, as there were more than two parents involved.
I am growing F3 generation this year, one PL line and two RLs, selecting for different traits in each line.

Tania

[travis]

I didn't say it exactly right the first time.

But regardless of the number of parental inputs toward the final cross, that final cross is made between only two parents.

In the case of Purple Haze F1, both parents were stable for their leaf forms. The Brandywine x Cherokee Purple parent was F4 cc for potato leaf and the Black Cherry parent was long time CC for regular leaf. So the F1 Purple Haze is Cc regular leaf.

Therefore, the F2 Purple Haze seedlings should show 1cc:2Cc:1CC in all likelihood and not withstanding random chance. Then the 25% cc, one in four vines, are locked in potato leaf and remain so in the F3. The 25% CC are regular leaf and remain so in the F3.

And it's only the F2 Cc plants, 2 of four, or 50% of the total sample if enough F2 seeds were planted for a good sample, that will produce seeds that will segregate out with 25% PL to 75% RL in the F3 vines, being that the Cc plants will give you again 1cc:2Cc:1CC seeds.

That's why I'm saying that anyone who is getting 25% potato leaf vines from their F3 seeds got those seeds from plants within the 50% heterozygeous (Cc) F2 population. If by chance one were to have saved seeds from the F2 CC vines, those would have shown in all likelihood 100% RL in the F3 seedlings.