Caging vs. Sprawling

[organichris]

Originally Posted by TomatoDon

Sprawling has been mentioned here at T'Ville before and I always wanted to try it, since it seems to work well for others. However, I think the success is partly, if not all, determined by the climate and location.

I'm about 80 miles south of Memphis, the deep Mid-South. Lots of heat, humidity, bugs, and so on. I had said I'd like to try the sprawl method on raised beds, such as a raised row with ground cloth and/or hay on top for better drainage and air circulation. This year I tried it in conventional raised beds.

I planted several tomatoes in some of my raised beds, 12 X 5 feet dimenions. Some beds had heavy grade paper as the weed barrier, with wheat straw on top, and some had black commercial grade ground cloth with wheat straw on top. Every tomato I planted this way WITHOUT the cage, was a miserable failure. They grew a little, but when the weight was enough at about 12-18 inches, they drooped over and just sprawled, or laid on the mulch, with very little growth. It was like they stunted at that point, and didnt' do much of anything else. Basically, they stayed about the same size, developed very few blooms and/or fruit. They were laying (sprawling) on well drained "material" and had everything the surrounding plants had. The others, next to them, grew normally, grew "up" in their cages, thrived, blossomed, and put on plenty of fruit. Many outgrew their cages while the "sprawlers" a few feet away did nothing, even though they were planted at the same time, or without a very few days of each other.

I just don't see anyone in my area using the sprawl method intentionally, or with any kind of success. Even if you see a field with 5,000 tomatoes in it, they are staked, or the grower uses the Florida weave method. Down through the years I'm sure that millions of tomato plants have been planted and left alone for one reason or another, and sprawled naturally. If any significant trait for production for this method had resulted, people would have tried the sprawl method on purpose, and still be using it. Yet I've never seen it done as a planned and purposeful way to grow tomatoes here. I have not seen one example of it working in my area, which I would include to be the whole gulf south states area. If it exists successfully in this region, I have not seen or, nor heard about it.

I tried it. I gave it a more than fair and reasonable effort. Still, no luck.

DS

I need to make one obvious edit here. This was written concerning Indets. The bush varieties have done well. But their growth habit doesn't qualify as "sprawling."

TomatoDon, thanks for the input. I have just a couple of questions: Are your caged plants and sprawlers of the same variety? I know you said they were all indeterminate, but were they exactly the same kinds of plants? And to what would you attribute to your lack of success, or is it unclear?

[TomatoDon]

I will have to take note of what went where in the beds tomorrow. I remember some Bush Goliath and Better Bush went in some of those beds by the "sprawlers" and did fine. I also remember thinking that the "sprawlers" were basically "half a plant" since half was laying on the ground. I finally lifted the most promising sprawlers (the ones that grew at least a little) and set cages over them. Of course they had the growth habit of a running vine more than a normal tomato trained to grow up, and when lifted upright they looked odd since there was little conforminty to the foliage and growth direction. Again, only one side (the sunny side up) grew (developed) at all; the part laying on the ground basically did nothing.

I really didn't notice any more fungus, disease, or anything else like that bothering the sprawlers. They just dropped over and lay there, surviving, as green as the other plants, but basically no growth. I only have had one of about 40 plants to be pulled due to disease, and that was one pulled as a small plant. So, survival of sprawlers and caged ones about the same.

The caged plants bushed out, grew tall, and filled out the cages. The sprawlers appeared to simply have stunted growth on one side, and none on the other (laying on the straw). I'm not sure, I might have lifted some and put cages over them hoping to get them going again, and may have left others sprawling. I'll see if I can get pics. It will be quite interesting to see these "former sprawlers" now caged and make a strong comeback. That would really tell us something.

DS

[veggie babe]

I used both methods this year and both worked equally well until the 100 + temps starting cooking the tomatoes on the plants that were sprawling. The staked tomatoes shaded themselves so I didn't lose any tomatoes to sun blistering. Texas is hotter than usual earlier in the year so it may not have been a fair test of the two methods.

neva

[Frog]

My climate is often damp in the summer, not ideal for tomatoes but ideal for late blight, tomatoes grow best under some kind of cover, basically given a roof to keep the rain off the leaves. It's have to be a pretty big structure to cover the sprawlers.

Has anyone ever tried maypole support for an unpruned plant?

[TomatoDon]

I'm sure that has a lot to do with it, babe. We had this odd prolonged wet spell in the spring and I was late planting, so it was already hot when they were trying to get established. And we all commented here in my area that it's been the hottest June we can remember. But even if I had planted earlier...where does a sprawling tomato sprawl to? It doesn't have the growth pattern of a vine, but on the ground it tries to.

Unless for some odd conditions, I can't see sprawling working consistenly in my area.It might very well be just the thing in other areas, but not here. I know that every year a lot of plants are "let go" and they sprawl, but you never hear of them producing, or that the method produces even a bare amount, not even enough for people to use the method as a labor-saving bare minimum production. Once they get on the ground you can't keep the weeds out, it's very hard to keep the fruit from getting damaged by the (wet) ground, the insects march in, and as someone else said...how do you get in there to pick em?

But...in other areas I understand that it works fine. They don't have this semi-tropic climate we have in my area, or the bugs and disease that goes with it. Not the way we do, anyway. I'm guess these are in fairly short growing seasons as well.

I've also wondered how it would work using the grow bags and containers. Just let em sprawl, and still there would be a fair amount of the plant off the ground anyway. Maybe that would work. I guess the ultimate sprawl method would be these insipid upside down tomato things that caught on this year, and the tomatoes could just sprawl anywhere with gravity keeping them straight...down.

Also, seems in another thread here on sprawling a grower in Kansas said that had to let em sprawl because of the wind. But when I think of sprawling, I can't think of what the reason is to use the method...does it produce more in some areas and climates? Or does it just allow for the planting of more plants without having all the maintenance? If I was going to plant 1,000 tomatoes I'd sure want some labor saving idea so I could handle that many. It certainly must have a value with some because people use it in different places.

I may have just missed it, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they use the sprawl method because it increases yields and produces nicer fruit. Not under normal conditions in normal length growing seasons. I'm guessing it's mostly used as a labor saving technique when planting lots and lots of plants. Some folks seem to like it just fine, so if it works, it works, and that's all that's needed.

DS

[Patapsco Mike]

Figured it would be better to be a caboose on an old thread than start another similar thread.

Here in MD, zone 7, based on the reading I'd done here in Tville I let half my plants sprawl this summer. Each kind of tomato had one sprawler and one caged plant. The sprawling plants looked great, set a lot of fruit, and were much easier- but they were outproduced probably 10 to 1 or more by the staked fruits. There were several reasons for this. First some deer got in my garden. They were able to eat all the tomatoes off my sprawling plants, but could only get a few of the caged ones. Then ants and slugs and who knows what else started getting into the fruits on the ground just as they would start to ripen. I think this was in part because the sprawling plants were a better hiding spot for bugs than the caged plants with open ground between them. I had to start picking the sprawling plant's fruits earlier than the caged plants. Then some kind of leaf issue developed on all my plants, but my sprawling plants suffered a lot more. They stopped setting fruit entirely, and I pulled them all while the caged plants were still producing well.

I am still picking tomatoes off my caged plants several weeks after pulling all those that were sprawled. I will never use the sprawl method again.

FWIW my trial was in a raised bed of mixed horse manure, vermiculite, and peat moss. The tomatoes used were Brandywine Suddeth, Kelloggs Breakfast, Sungold, Cherokee Purple and Jetstar.

[veggie babe]

At the end of the season I will have to agree with you; I won't let my tomato plants sprawl again if I can help it. It does take one big cage to support some of these monster plants but it is worth it. Considering everything I would consider this year a succes although I would have like to can and or freeze more fo use this winter.

Neva

[dipchip2000]

Veggie Babe, I grew only eight indeterminates this year nut they were in cages made from CRW. Easy to make and 5ft tall. They are the only way for me from now on.

dipchip2000

ps. There is a tutorial on here to make them

[RJ_Hythloday]

Wow! What an interesting thread, I missed it when it was new. I started the season w/ bamboo tripods and FL weave. I got behind on the weave and they began to sprawl. I even have a trellised pumpkin that's started to sprawl in their area. The tripod ones I got lazy w/ tying up and so they are sprawling now as well. The plants all seem very healthy, lots of foliage to shade and still setting and ripening fruit. I have been planning on spending the $400 for 18 24" TX cages and maybe 9 extensions. I've considered the CRW but will be moving in a year and the storageability of the TX just seems worth it. It also seems that w/ cages the rest of the plants in the raised beds will get better light. As is alot of the peppers are struggling, I've removed 1 tom and a few basil to let some peppers have a chance and they've done great since.

[matertoo]

I started the year planning on staking my maters. For stakes, I decided on using 6' plastic stakes available at Walmart. Big mistake!! When the temperature hovered around 100, several of the stakes "melted" under the stress of the toms and a'collapsed".

They're sprawling now!! Due to this experience, I invested in several of the TX Tomato Cages with extensions and have a few tomatoes in them. Will probably get a few more of the TX Tomato Cages with extensions for next year. Storage is an issue and I really like the ease with which they fold down and store.

I am a Tx Tomato Cage Fan!!

Happy Matering,


Paul

[camochef]

This seems to be a discussion that goes on every year on every tomato growing forum. There are those that favor one method over the other, and they both have advantages and disadvantages.
As someone who is 61 years old and disabled, and needs a cane to get around, or sits on a five gallon bucket to work around plants, there is only one way to go. that's caging. If I allowed plants to sprawl, I would be harvesting much less, for more than one reason. First of all, I couldn't get down to pick the ripened fruit and if I did, I wouldn't be getting back up without assistence. Then there's the problem of getting around between the plants once the season progresses somewhat. I hate trying to maneuver throught the growth and suddenly feeling and hearing a splat as I step on a one lb. plus tomato.
Last year a little more than 3/4 of my 256 tomato plants were caged, I made certain that they were all caged this year. Now I admit, that cages are a lot more costly, especially when you have a couple hundred plants. but in the long run (they last for years) their quick and easy to install. (I use CRW or American Wire fencing (cattle fencing), with 6x6 squares. I stake these with 12 inch tent stakes. This year I did have three blow over in a 60mph storm, but the other 235 remained upright and unharmed.
I have no problem sitting on my bucket and fertilizing around the base of each plant, which I can see easily. I can also water, prune or inspect for insects easily. Weeding is a breeze with my scuffle hoe and hand weeders. I do prune the bottom of each plant to make them look like little trees when young. then keep them inside the cages as they grow, and allow them to cascade over the top when they get tall enough to do so.
I did try stakes (green Bamboo and 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 inch oak) about 3 or 4 years ago, but riped them all out when I bent over to pick a ripe Brandywine and almost put a green bamboo stake into my eyeball. Was saved by my glasses but still had a nasty gash running from my eye to the middle of my forehead. The nurse at the emergency room, who had seen me numerous time before, told me that I really had to be more careful!
Now I know Carolyn is a supporter of sprawling, and lots like to follow her example, but come on Carolyn, when's the last time you picked a sprawling tomato? We all can't get Freda to come and pick for us. ( not being nasty here at all, just stating by example, that at my age it becomes almost impossible).
Oh, if there is a drawback, other than cost, and having room to store all those cages, it's the fact that it does give the birds a place to perch and sample the tomatoes. Other than that I'm a firm supporter of caging, as long as its not those cheap lite-weight things that you pick up at the local hardware store, which are all but useless.
Hoping this doesn't offend anyone, I just find it the logical way to go when one gets older. To each their own.
Camo

[Blueaussi]

Hey matertoo, what's a Tx Tomato Cage?

[matertoo]

Blueaussie:

Just Google "Texas Tomato Cage" and their site will come up. May be a little pricey initially, but they'll last a long time and they store nicely.

Happy Matering,

Paul

[Blueaussi]

Ok, thanks.

Yeah, I think they're too rich for my blood. I'll have to stick to fence-type caging.

[carolyn137]

Camo,the last time that I picked fruits from my sprawled plants, since you asked, was the summer of 2004 b'c it was on December 12th, 2004 that I fell and severed all four quad muscles in my right leg as well as the major tendon.

And since then I've had to use a walker and so can no longer grow my own tomatoes.

In the Spring of 2005 I desperately tried to raise some plants here at home under my largest light fixture, whichI hadn't used in years b'c previous to that I'd sow all the seeds here and take them to the seed greenhouse of my farmer friend Charlie and then drive back and forth to do all the transplanting. I moved here in 1999 after I had to retire b'c of mobility problems and prior to that I raised all my plants at Charlies greenhouses and set them out myself at the old family farm.

But trying to raise my own plants while using the walker was a disaster b/c I couldn't do much without two hands to move flats, etc. The summer of 2005 I gave away lots of those plants and kept only a few that someone planted for me in the large raised bed out back.

Since then Martha ( gardenmama) has raised my few plants for me in VA and shipped them up here for me and I sent the same seeds to bcday and she's done most of my seed production for me.

So from the summer of 2005 to now all my plants are in the backyard and all in gro bags since I converted the large raised bed to fragrant perennials.

And from about 2001 thru 2004 I grew at three places. One was a field at Charlie's farm, where all plants were sprawled, another was here near where I live where all plants were caged and another was here near where I live where plants were sprawled. And in several of those years I grew the same varietries both by sprawling and caging for some varieties so I had a comparison.

After I fell I needed to hire help for house cleaning and groceries and gardening and the first person I hired I had to fire b'c she was stealing pills from me.

Freda has only been with me since the summer of 2007 when all tomato plants have been grown in gro bags.

When I fell in 2004 I was 65 but my hips were so bad that in that last summer had my brother not helped me I would have had nothing b/c between the bad hips and spinal stenosis I was not in good shape at all.
My brother and family moved to NC several years ago.

If I could get out there with a cane at my current age of 70 I would, but PT this Fall indicated that I could not do so. So I remain dependent on Freda.

I've said time and time again that sprawling plants is not for everyone, but it worked well for me for many years where I lived and grew my tomatoes at the old family farm and then at Charlies farm. All commercial farmers up here grow by sprawling tomatoes; not one uses the methods used in more southerly areas.

I have caged plants and that works well also.

But when growing up to 800 plants each year for many years caging was not an option.

So yes, I know that not everyone has a Freda as you said, but I feel blessed that with her help I can still have stuff grown here at home, the tomatoes in gro bags and carrots and radishes and lettuce and potatoes and summer squash, etc., in large containers.