Black Sea Man leaf type

[mensplace]

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

I will adamantly take a strong stand on this.

Leaf shape defines a variety. Ponderosa is regular leaf. Cherokee Purple is regular leaf. Brandywine is potato leaf. There are no other "versions". It DEFINES the variety as much as fruit shape or color.

When different leaf shapes show up in a variety, it is a strong signal that something is different. You are no longer discussing that variety.

Gardeners who just grow to eat the fruit and are not saving and sharing seeds of course don't really need to be concerned about it.

But if we are trying to maintain lines, then yes, we have to be concerned about it. Because a leaf shape mutation shift in a tomato is very, very rare. And if the leaf shifts, and that shift is stabilized, it should get a different name, because it is now a different variety.

Otherwise, all of our large pink tomatoes could be considered Ponderosa or Potato leaf Ponderosa. What if the origin of Brandywine was a selection and stabilization of a potato leaf plant from Ponderosa seed?

I don't think that I am making my point very well, because the essence of the relevance of this doesn't seem to come through. It is all about maintaining accurately our plant heritage.

Your last sentence certainly summed this up very well. It was important to me primarily because I DID find so many varieties with both leaf forms. SO, prior to final selection and putting out plants, I need to go through each variety and research what SHOULD be the correct leaf form and select only those that are true to type for placement in my garden as I do want to grow fruit and save seed that SHOULD be as true to type as possible. The concern would seem to be that if these have been crossed, then it will take a few generations to produce only those that are true to type...or maybe that recessive trait will always continue to generate future plants of both.

[nctomatoman]

Thanks! whew. I think what complicates it is the people's differing perceptions of what defines a variety. I tend to take a strict, hard line. Any particular variety is defined by many things, and we can't know for exact sure without DNA testing if what we are growing is what we expect.

So for me, when I received Cherokee Purple as an unnamed variety (just to use an example), it clearly has these characteristics - regular leaf, indeterminate, large oblate fruit, clear skin, dark crimson interior with some retained chlorophyll, dark shoulders that don't completely ripen, and the whole gamut of flavor characteristics that are hard to describe. Since I've grown literally thousands of Cherokee Purple seedlings over the years, I've gotten to observe somewhat the rarity of leaf shape change. Same with Brandywine, Akers West Virginia, and countless other varieties.

When I did find something unusual (wrong leaf type), I tended to grow out one plant just to see - and it was clear that it was a cross or mix up.

Some of us involved in this are just lucky to have gotten in when we did - so when varieties were making it from families or collections into the SSE, Carolyn, me and a few other very active members were amongst the first to grow it and see what was meant to be.

That really helps make my other point - to all people just jumping into this wonderful heirloom thing now, I feel it is critical that each of you get what you expect, and are growing what you think you are growing.

So I know that I often come across as a pain in the a*$, but it isn't to be difficult - it is to help to try maintain our great legacy with some level of confidence and accuracy. yeah, I am a scientist...that's just the way I think!

[mensplace]

Not at all a pain, but very helpful in my effort to start out right. What started out as a very simple interest...thanks to all here..grew considerably as I read each new description. Now I have about 100 varieties and 1000 plants. Hawever, thanks to Craigslist, I have received a LOT of interest and folks driving 2 hours to pick up my extras. My goal is to reduce down to two of each plants and grow those, but being very careful to assure that I get and grow only those that refect type chacteristics. Then, after tasting for myself, I will save the seed of those that do best here and taste best. The selling of the extras has really helped to defray my costs, but next year I will have far fewer, i.e., the best of the best for growing conditions here. With each sale I have had the opportunity to spread the gospel of heirlooms and refer people here. Those not meeting the correct type requirements will make a good bonus for those who just want tomatoes that are not the hybrid types from the big retailers. Also will have an ad in the Farmers Market Bulletin and experiment with the local farmers markets, but am not shipping plants.

[Suze]

I more or less agree about the comments on leaf type - and not just as it pertains to Black Sea Man.

For the most part, when I've grown out PL "variants" of a variety, sorry, but the fruits are almost always NOT exactly the same as the original. No problems as I see it sharing seed of a great variety, as long as it is named something else (because IMO it is in fact a different, distinct variety) and not "XYZ PL." Hopefully, an attempt is also made to evaluate potential stability for at least a couple of generations before widely sharing seeds of this new variety with others too.

However/digression - and it might seem like I'm picking on a few folks who posted in this thread, even though it's not my intent - but I feel compelled to mention that there are other ways beyond leaf type to (inadvertently) perpetuate confusion and inaccuracies.

For one, no one should list or share seeds of a variety if there is significant variation in fruit form or size or color that prompts someone to say something to the effect of - let me know in your request (or commercial order) which one you would like seeds for. Anything like that, and the person should be growing out the variety at least one more time (minimum) and attempting to make a selection that conforms to the description of what they were sent before listing or sharing seeds with others as *that* variety. Otherwise, you're in effect distributing seeds for who-knows-what under a particular name.

Russian to English translation - IMO, this seems to create a fair amount of confusion and frequently leads to multiple names for the same variety, both in the yearbook and elsewhere. I'll admit I'm somewhat guilty of this (going along with and offering something under the "English" translation) myself a time or two.

Wouldn't it make more sense NOT to attempt to translate a name to English, and just stick with whatever the name is translated straight out of the Cyrillic alphabet as the name for a variety - no "aka"?

[Tania]

I completely agree that if we discover a 'variant', we should first make sure it is stabilized, and secondly, we should give it a different name, before circulating seeds.

However, I am still uncertain as to what to do in the event when different commercial vendors (for example some Russian or Ukrainian vendors I know of) sell different varieties under the same name - like the Chernomor discussed above. I am not comfortable renaming a variety that was originated from a commercial vendor under a specific name. What do we do in this case to differentiate between the two Chernomors?

There are also multiple examples I know of when Russian commercial varieties have different skin color and still are named the same/sold under the same name.

It is very frustrating.

Plus how do we correct the mistakes already made without adding more confusion?

Tania

[travis]

Originally Posted by Tania

There are also multiple examples I know of when Russian commercial varieties have different skin color and still are named the same/sold under the same name. It is very frustrating.

That is all I was referring to in post #7 on page one. I have on more than one occasion received seeds from Russia that showed both leaf types and both epidermis colors under the same variety name. Nothing more than that. Black from Tula, Gigant-10 Novikova and Black Elephant come to mind immediately. There were others.

[Tania]

Travis,

In your case, were these differently-colored tomatoes coming out of the same seed packet or from different vendors?

Tania

[travis]

Gigant-10: Same pack, two leaf forms, identical fruit.

Black from Tula: Two sources, two leaf forms, two skin colors.

Black Elephant: Two sources, two leaf forms, same clear skin, fruit appeared the same.

[nctomatoman]

I think that another contributor to the confusion is that it is clear some seed companies don't ever actually observe some of what they sell...they contract out the seed production and then offer it in their catalog with a description that someone came up with. So you end up with some companies offering seed of a variety with a description, but something went wrong in seed production and what ends up getting sold is not what it actually is....

Again, one of the great things about Tomatoville - there is lots of expertise here - if you are in doubt, ask! You will get plenty of responses/opinions!

[Tania]

Originally Posted by travis

Gigant-10: Same pack, two leaf forms, identical fruit.

Black from Tula: Two sources, two leaf forms, two skin colors.

Black Elephant: Two sources, two leaf forms, same clear skin, fruit appeared the same.

Travis,

And Rozovyi Gigant is another one, with two skin colors and two leaf forms - both listed at SSE. The correct version is pink and RL.
http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Rozovyi_Gigant

And 'Mashenka' is another one that I have seen in two skin colors - pink and red. Red colored one is the correct, original, as described by Russian CVs. Pink variant is listed at SSE. http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Mashenka

Chernyi Slon (a.k.a. Black Elephant) should be PL. RL variant is a result of a cross or seed mixup or some Ukrainian seed vendor selling different variety under the same name.

I am growing Gigant-10 Novikova this year, seeds from Andrey via a T-ville member, all my seedlings are RL, as they should be. Your PL is probably a stray seed (?)

I am sure we can come up with many more similar examples. Sigh.

Black from Tula PL - is this what is known as 'Spudatula'?

Tania

[Andrey_BY]

There is Gigant-10 Novikova with red beefsteak fruits and RL foliage and Gigant Novikova with pink beefsteaks and RL foliage from another Russian seed company ;-) Never seen PL GN.

[Tania]

Originally Posted by Andrey_BY

There is Gigant-10 Novikova with red beefsteak fruits and RL foliage and Gigant Novikova with pink beefsteaks and RL foliage from another Russian seed company ;-) Never seen PL GN.

Andrey,

Which one (red or pink) do you think is the original or correct? Is there a way to find out?

Also, the Gigant-10 Novikova seeds that you distributed - which CVs were they from and which fruit color should they have?

Tania

[mensplace]

I certainly do respect and thank you for your opinions and suggestions , especially as a 1st year total rookie trying to make some sense of the many different varieties in temrs of what has good flavor, what the correct sizes are that should be expected, characteristics, etc.. Not to get all warm and fuzzy, but shouldn't the propagation of great heirlooms and the accurate saving of viable seeds be something of a given ethic here? I'm reminded of my apple experiences that I have pursued since I was 14 when I first started grafting. Sure there are thousands of apple varieties, but some became history specifically because of their severe flaws or overwhelmingly poor quality of fruit. What is gained by the preservation of those that are notoriously weak, disease prone, virtually non-producing plants? Yes, I treasure those varieties that have superior flavor, healthy plants, resistance, and a decent record of bearing fruit, but (sorry to those who disagree) but have no understanding of preserving the tomato equivalent of the Black Ben Davis. Sure, it had its place in history as it was the only apple to withstand the early rigors of shipping, but it was never a great apple..heirloom or otherwise. Combine all of that with seed production that is not accurate or reliable and many stand to damge the reputation of heirlooms in general. If anything, I want to preserve the GREAT herlooms that WILL do well here and use those also as a base for some crossbreeding of my own to combine those best of the best traits. Attempting that with seed that is questionable really compounds the difficulty.

Originally Posted by Suze

I more or less agree about the comments on leaf type - and not just as it pertains to Black Sea Man.

For the most part, when I've grown out PL "variants" of a variety, sorry, but the fruits are almost always NOT exactly the same as the original. No problems as I see it sharing seed of a great variety, as long as it is named something else (because IMO it is in fact a different, distinct variety) and not "XYZ PL." Hopefully, an attempt is also made to evaluate potential stability for at least a couple of generations before widely sharing seeds of this new variety with others too.

However/digression - and it might seem like I'm picking on a few folks who posted in this thread, even though it's not my intent - but I feel compelled to mention that there are other ways beyond leaf type to (inadvertently) perpetuate confusion and inaccuracies.

For one, no one should list or share seeds of a variety if there is significant variation in fruit form or size or color that prompts someone to say something to the effect of - let me know in your request (or commercial order) which one you would like seeds for. Anything like that, and the person should be growing out the variety at least one more time (minimum) and attempting to make a selection that conforms to the description of what they were sent before listing or sharing seeds with others as *that* variety. Otherwise, you're in effect distributing seeds for who-knows-what under a particular name.

Russian to English translation - IMO, this seems to create a fair amount of confusion and frequently leads to multiple names for the same variety, both in the yearbook and elsewhere. I'll admit I'm somewhat guilty of this (going along with and offering something under the "English" translation) myself a time or two.

Wouldn't it make more sense NOT to attempt to translate a name to English, and just stick with whatever the name is translated straight out of the Cyrillic alphabet as the name for a variety - no "aka"?

[Andrey_BY]

Originally Posted by Tania

Andrey,

Which one (red or pink) do you think is the original or correct? Is there a way to find out?

Also, the Gigant-10 Novikova seeds that you distributed - which CVs were they from and which fruit color should they have?

Tania

There are many varieties of Gigant Novikova series since there is Gigant-10 Novikova. I believe original Gigant-10 has to be RL plant with pink fruit. Red one is from other numbers of Novikov's tomato series.

My Gigant Novikova was from Aelita commercial seed package. But this is not a CV since it have been bred by a amateur gardener A.I.Novikov as all other his "tomato children".

My red Gigant Novikova was from Rossiyskie Semena commercial seed package.

[Tania]

Thank you Andrey!

This makes it easier to identify and label... I guess

Tania