Seed availability issues

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by pinakbet

how about OSU blue...?

There are no companies that should list OSU Blue b'c it has never formally been released by the hybridizers.

It was given to several folks for breeding rpojects and the seed was not to be shared by anyone, but it was and is. Actually a person working in the lab of the hybridizers distributed seed for it at one website which I think was reaoly wrong but she said she hadn't asked if she coulkd and was doing it.

Besides, there's no ONE OSU Blue out there; there are now several versions from folks using it in crosses, especially the P20 one.

Does anyone else have an opinion about the legality of a company offering ANY form of OSU BLue? As I said above, I know the original seeds sent out to just a few folks were NOT to be shared and as I undertstand it the signature of the person reciving the seeds had to be signed saying that seeds wouldn't be shared. There's now good way to address the issue of the person from that lab giving out seeds but I see it as wrong b'c we know the intent of the hybridizers was otherwise.

[pinakbet]

thanks for enlightening me on that Carolyn.

[FILMNET]

I am growing Earls Fauxe this year , nice and sweet, i have been saving seed for a few weeks already. and i have some nice ones turning pink any day now, i will get some seeds form them . i did get some seeds from Bejo

[Stepheninky]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

There are no companies that should list OSU Blue b'c it has never formally been released by the hybridizers.

It was given to several folks for breeding rpojects and the seed was not to be shared by anyone, but it was and is. Actually a person working in the lab of the hybridizers distributed seed for it at one website which I think was reaoly wrong but she said she hadn't asked if she coulkd and was doing it.

Besides, there's no ONE OSU Blue out there; there are now several versions from folks using it in crosses, especially the P20 one.

Does anyone else have an opinion about the legality of a company offering ANY form of OSU BLue? As I said above, I know the original seeds sent out to just a few folks were NOT to be shared and as I undertstand it the signature of the person reciving the seeds had to be signed saying that seeds wouldn't be shared. There's now good way to address the issue of the person from that lab giving out seeds but I see it as wrong b'c we know the intent of the hybridizers was otherwise.

Yes, I think it is wrong to profit and sell it against the originators wishes, and also to share it. I have seen it offered here and there on a few auction and rare seed sites and while I am interested in it have resisted the urge to buy it. Not really sure on the crossing issue. It is pretty well know what the two original parent plants were. I have seed on the way for the wild one and will do my own crosses with a few but different varieties to see what comes of it, if I get a blue variation I will of course be happy about it but in truth I am just doing my crosses to experiment and see if anything new or interesting comes out of it.

I do think if you use some one else's introduced or crossed variety credit should be given to them as well. Just as a show of respect.

[Stepheninky]

Originally Posted by FILMNET

I am growing Earls Fauxe this year , nice and sweet, i have been saving seed for a few weeks already. and i have some nice ones turning pink any day now, i will get some seeds form them . i did get some seeds from Bejo

I noticed bajo now has both those listed in there South East tomato offerings

[FILMNET]

They did much earlier, they send me seeds, I grow Mountain magic and smarty f1 this summer, the plants are still growing and the fruits are sweet of really red only.

[carolyn137]

I noticed bajo now has both those listed in there South East tomato offerings

****

I just spent some time at Google and I can't find any information about when and where Mt Magic F1 and Plum Regal F1 will be made available per your comment abouot a listing for SE tomatoes. The one link had both featured with the various tolerances bred in but that same link has been around for quite a while and I even liniked to it with my free seed offer here this apst Spring for the NCSU varieties.

Bejo is strictly wholsale to the industry but I do know a couple of folks who did get some sample packs of MM and Plum Regal.

Smarty F1 was listed by Johnny's last year. I didn't know that Bejo did the distribution for that one as well, or did I get a bit confused in reading into that, since you showed packets for just MM and Plum Regal.

I e-mailed Elaine at Bejo early this AM and hope to hear back from her soon.

[Stepheninky]

They have a pdf for the south east that list their tomatoes and has contact info for the regional sales agents. Did not see a buy it now type link just meant the company could be contacted for samples and wholesale pricing and available vender's.

Did not mean to imply you could buy direct or in small quantities if it was taken that way

[Fusion_power]

There are significant problems with all of the OSU blue related material, primarily associated with size of fruit and really poor flavor. Even though someone widely distributed seed a few years ago, I am not comfortable making plants available without authorization from OSU. They have not released the breeding material.

I have absolutely no problems with making selections from crosses involving the OSU lines and hope to make at least one selection available next year.

I have seed from a single plant selection out of a complex P20 cross that has exceptional flavor. It is sweet as Sungold with an intense red color and deep blue/black shoulders. I'll be growing a large number of plants next year hoping to stabilize the line.

DarJones

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

There are significant problems with all of the OSU blue related material, primarily associated with size of fruit and really poor flavor. Even though someone widely distributed seed a few years ago, I am not comfortable making plants available without authorization from OSU. They have not released the breeding material.

I have absolutely no problems with making selections from crosses involving the OSU lines and hope to make at least one selection available next year.

I have seed from a single plant selection out of a complex P20 cross that has exceptional flavor. It is sweet as Sungold with an intense red color and deep blue/black shoulders. I'll be growing a large number of plants next year hoping to stabilize the line.

DarJones

Darrel, I'm not quite following your logic here.

You don't want to sell plants for ANY version of the OSU as I read it, but you have no problem making selections from your own crosses and offering something stable from those crosses as plants.

If OSU has not released this variety formally, in any version, I guess I'm stuck trying to figure out what you wrote above.

Of course I didn't see the release papers that had to be signed by those who were recipents from OSU, no signing of anything from what the lab worker distributed, but it would be normal, I think, for the hybridizer to ask for right of first refusal for anything bred with his OSU germplasm.

And I know some hybridizers who just share germplasm with no paper signing but would obviously expect to hear back from the person who got that germplasm as to how it was used and what the results were. But I do know in the specific case of OSU Blue that there were papers to sign with the material distributed from the hybridizer.

Maybe Mark or Randy or Tom and/or you can clarify this for me?

[RinTinTin]

As far as the legality of selling/trading the seeds is concerned, I feel that if somebody signed a statement that they would NOT do so, then they are in violation of their contract, and were illegally distributing the seed. Any company selling them, even if they received them through a 2nd or 3rd party, is in fact selling an illegal product.

As far as the lab tech is concerned, she was selling stolen property in interstate commerce (the internet).

At the least, OSU will probably be more selective who they provide seed to in the future. The image of anybody distributing this seed has been tarnished in my eyes.

[Fusion_power]

Carolyn,

My point is that the material from OSU is unreleased. I would not sell any of the plants from seed that I got from OSU until it is officially released. My understanding from Jim Myers is that they plan to ask for a royalty on any plants or seed sold. I would happily pay the royalty.

My other point is that the material I've seen from the various OSU lines so far is not up to commercial standards. The plants are highly disease susceptible, flavor is poor to horrible, size is still too small, etc.

On the other hand, using OSU stock to make crosses and then selecting better quality and production from those selections is both legal and ethical. The genetics involved are not that hard to select.

DarJones

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

Carolyn,

My point is that the material from OSU is unreleased. I would not sell any of the plants from seed that I got from OSU until it is officially released. My understanding from Jim Myers is that they plan to ask for a royalty on any plants or seed sold. I would happily pay the royalty.

*****

The only other hybridizer I knew of at OSU is Dr. Baggett and all his releases such as Oregon Spring, Legend, etc., were placed with commercial seed companies, and large ones, such as TT, Territorial and the like, not individuals. And no royalties were ever asked for those, at least any I knew of, for seeds or the umpteen places where plants from those seeds were sold.

Being at OSU and other academic places is different from being at perhaps Novartis or Harris-Moran or Petoseed or similar, in the way things are done. I know roughly what the deal was with special bacteria and viruses that were developed at academic places where I was and the institutions took a cut, that's a given, but as I recall it was out of gross sales. Those hybridizers with academic places I don't think became individually wealthy from their own developments.

And when you say royalties on any seed sold are you talking about any seed OSU releases or any seed developed FROM the original seed that Myers made available? Which again brings up the question of any obligation to Myers for anything others develop with his germplasm.

*****
My other point is that the material I've seen from the various OSU lines so far is not up to commercial standards. The plants are highly disease susceptible, flavor is poor to horrible, size is still too small, etc.

( While I haven't grown it and don't intend to, from what I'm reading online it seems that it's not just up to commercial standards, whatever that might mean, rather, the fruits don't taste good which blunts the purpose for which OSU was bred. Now that's for the original seed from OSU but what about all the folks who are crossing OSU Blue versions with something else and are saying what they have tastes great?

There's no obligation at all to share those developments with Myers?)

*****

On the other hand, using OSU stock to make crosses and then selecting better quality and production from those selections is both legal and ethical. The genetics involved are not that hard to select.

*****

Again, there's no obligation to Myers and OSU to share those versions selected by different folks?

As a comparison, I can see folks using Mt Magic and Plum Regal as sources of some newer disease tolerant genes to use in constructing new varieties, but both of those are finished hybrids released by NCSU and now in the hands of Bejo for commercial distribution.

****

Sorry for all the questions but I knew of some fellow faculty members who HAD developed some unique viruses and bacteria ( especially Drs. Smith and Porter at the U of Rochester Med School who developed the vaccine for H. influenzae type b) who in a couple of cases patented what they developed while some didn't, I think it all depends on the particular academic institution, who were completely faked out ( my euphamism for a more bold comment).

Edited to add:

As I was sitting in the back room just now making out bills it occurred to me that when I ask about an obligation to get back to someone who has sent germplasm to someone else, in this case Myers, I think it would really be courtesy, which if it were me would be an obligation, but then I don't know the specifics of what the signed paper that Myers required, other than requesting that no seeds be shared with others. So there's the ethical to think about, as you mentioned above Darrel, and there's also the legal, which I'm not in a position to speak to, which you also mentioned in saying that ethically and legally using Myers germplasm is OK and implying that other than courtesy/obligation, nothing else is required.

Honestly I don't know why this bothers me so much except for the situations I know from my own academic career and folks I knew who dealt with sharing of germplasm with others, bacteria and viruses, and what kind of cooperation there was or was not between the germplasm donor and the recipients. And sometimes the results were really BAD b'c those who got the germplasm, never reported back, eclipsed the germplasm donor with further developments and in few instances undermined the donor such that it led to lack of promotion in rank/tenure.

[mjc]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Sorry for all the questions but I knew of some fellow faculty members who HAD developed some unique viruses and bacteria ( especially Drs. Smith and Porter at the U of Rochester Med School who developed the vaccine for H. influenzae type b) who in a couple of cases patented what they developed while some didn't, I think it all depends on the particular academic institution, who were completely faked out ( my euphamism for a more bold comment).

Part of the problem lies directly with whether or not the germplasm is patented or public domain. And an early release can really mess up the chances of something getting patented...

At this point, it would probably be best, for all involved, especially OSU, to cut it's losses and declare it a public domain item and move on with further development of the line, which CAN be more easily protected. It also settles the question of the current 'original' germplasm. Any lines developed, independently, from that initial release and its subsequent growouts, though that is covered by the 'fair use' in plant patents and PVP, though not utility patents (OSU is eligible for PVP or a utility patent) are under no real legal obligation to OSU...although morally/ethically, it's another matter.

[Fusion_power]

Carolyn,

I have the original MTA from OSU in my hand. The limits are for releasing the OSU material. U.S. PVP law specifically permits using material for breeding stock. That law applies to this breeding material. I can for example use Mountain Magic as a source of late blight tolerance by crossing with other tomatoes. This is again an ethical and legal use of the breeding stock. On the other hand, if I wanted to use the NC 1 Celbr breeding material, I would have to sign a license agreement with NCSU and that license agreement then would govern my rights to use the breeding stock.
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/pro...ses/index.html
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/pro...trictions.html


On moral grounds, I would not sell plants without discussing it with Jim Myers and determining if there are any objections first. I have spoken with him at least twice a year for the last 3 years.

On secondary moral grounds, I have an obligation to Keith Mueller because he has done a lot of the breeding work. That means I won't sell plants until Keith and I have worked out some details.

DarJones