german johnson

[amideutch]

This is the discription of the (Jim Benton's Variety) of German Johnson taken from the Dana's Flower and Garden Place web site. This is the one Camo was referencing to. Ami

"German Johnson (Jim Benton's Variety). 80 days. Indeterminate. Regular leaf. One of my Mom's customers brought us the seed over 25 years ago. Dark pink and very large, these can't be beat for old fashioned tomato taste. Very sweet and meaty. They average 4-5 inches across. This has always been my own personal favorite for tomato sandwiches."

And here is the discription from Dana's site for the other German Johnson she carries.

"German Johnson (Agatha Pascote's variety). 80 days . Indeterminate. Regular leaf. This German Johnson was given to me in 2009 by a customer. It had been in her family from Carroll County since the late 1800's. Just as good as Jim Benton's variety, but we will keep the seeds separate. It has a great long and local history."

[camochef]

Originally Posted by amideutch

This is the discription of the (Jim Benton's Variety) of German Johnson taken from the Dana's Flower and Garden Place web site. This is the one Camo was referencing to. Ami

"German Johnson (Jim Benton's Variety). 80 days. Indeterminate. Regular leaf. One of my Mom's customers brought us the seed over 25 years ago. Dark pink and very large, these can't be beat for old fashioned tomato taste. Very sweet and meaty. They average 4-5 inches across. This has always been my own personal favorite for tomato sandwiches."

And here is the discription from Dana's site for the other German Johnson she carries.

"German Johnson (Agatha Pascote's variety). 80 days . Indeterminate. Regular leaf. This German Johnson was given to me in 2009 by a customer. It had been in her family from Carroll County since the late 1800's. Just as good as Jim Benton's variety, but we will keep the seeds separate. It has a great long and local history."

Ami,
Thanks for posting from Dana's site. I don't know why I didn't think of doing that instead of going to my old reviews at IDIG. It might have been the late hour.
As many know, I have trouble with colors. I can't tell you how many times Carolyn has corrected me not only on dark pink/red but also on yellow/orange/gold diferences. C'est La Vie
Camo

[camochef]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Now if I could just remember where I read about many different tomatoes from N.C. - Va. area being called German Johnson's. I hope it wasn't in your book.

*****

In a post I did above in this thread I had said that somewhere in the back of my brain I had read that the RL one was grow primarily in one area in the south and the PL one primarily in a different area.

And then I looked in the TGS catalog and there was a reference to the one in NC and VA being the RL one so I posted that info in the same post above.

Nope, not from my book and I bet that you read about the NC/VA one in the TGS catalog as well.

Thanks for the additional information you gave.

I guess what I'm trying to say but perhaps not doing a very good job of it is that to attach a personal name to a well known heirloom is not always that helpful.

For instance, you and I can grow the same variety in the same year seeds from you to me, let's call it variety X.

Now I happen to already have grown variety X so I put out my variety X and the variety X from seeds you sent me.

And I find that in that season that your variety X did better than mine. So do I then call it Camo's variety X and distribute seeds that way, or just note in my notebook that seeds for that one came from you?

I would do the latter and not name it Camo's_____________, which to some indicates a possible new variety or strain, which it isn't.

Or take another example. At one time, and this is true, I wanted to compare the Red Brandywine that Tom Hauch, owner of Heirloom Seeds in PA, got out of the SSE YEarbook and was the first to offer it commercially, with the Red Brandywine that I already had from another SSE member from back in the early 90's.

I grow both RB's in the same season and find that Tom's was a better plant with greater productivity.

Do I then call that one Tom's Red Brandywine? No, I don't, it's just that Tom was the source of my seeds and any variety grown by any two folks can differ sometimes in the same season based on lots of variables.

As it turned out in this case his RB and my RB were identical.

Did I do a better job of trying to explain what I'm trying to say? I hope so.

Carolyn,
The attaching of Dana's name to the Benton German Johnson was originally for my records only and was never meant to be distributed. As you know from my disagreement with Blue Ribbon Tomatoes over the renaming of Barlow Jap a couple years back, I don't like to see anything renamed. I wasn't crazy over adding Kukla's to those Portugese tomatoes either. I believe in retaining the name I received seeds under, but that's in the past now.
Yes I'm guilty of renaming what was purchased as a regular pink Brandywine to Cowlick's Brandywine after noticing it's superior characteristics over all the other Brandywines I had growing that year and the following years. Even then, I simply named it for the nursury where it came from. I never intended to distribute seeds for it initially. Then the following year or two Jay was saying how he never had luck with pink Brandywines so I sent him some Cowlick seed to try. Not only were they successful for him but I sent so many seed that he began distributing them to others. That's how Ami got his over in Germany. The name spread quickly and soon many people from around the world were asking me for seed.
By that time the name Cowlick's Brandywine was worldwide so I continued sending seed to those that asked for it. It was Cowlick's Brandywine or Camo's Cowlick Brandywine to thousands not just in this country but in Europe, Africa, Asia, and even down in Australia. So I am guilty of that one.
Dana's Dusky Rose was actually named by Dana after I had suggested Dana's Dusty Rose as I felt the skin color was similar to Russian Rose although the shape wasn't.
My Dana's Dusky Rose/Cowlick's Brandywine cross is simply called that. I have no intention of naming it anything else and if it continues to produce such great tomatoes as it did last year, it is going to remain in my gardens only, as I'm seeing too much corruption of the other varieties that I shared around the world. Too many people grow without bagging blossoms and those growing them grow so many varieties that no one knows what they've crossed with. Still they keep sharing seed with others. I know my original Cowlick's look nothing like what many are calling Cowlick's now. Hence my regrets for sharing with so many.
I don't know if that explains things to everyones satisfaction or not, I hope so. After all I'm not the tomato expert as I've been telling people for years. Just an old man that grows a few tomatoes and they're getting to be less and less every year. I already told others at the other forum that I'm done writing individual tomato reviews and year in review reports. Will probably reduce my comments on gardening forums as well.
I will however, continue to post at food and recipe sites as I don't have to take the time to explain everything repeatedly there.
Have a wonderful growing season ahead and enjoy!
Camo

[camochef]

Originally Posted by Suze

Camo, rest assured that you are always welcome at Tomatoville and you are also free to speak your mind and share your experiences here.

Personally, I really appreciate how friendly and generous you've been with me in the past. Thank you. I'm sure many others reading this feel the same way.

Please don't let a few direct questions or comments ruffle your feathers. Easy to say, hard to do sometimes - believe me, I know!

Suze,
Thanks for the kind words, they are appreciated. I know sometimes I get a little emotional, especially as I get older. I guess I'm simply overwhelmed by all the experts out there nowadays. After growing tomatoes for more than 50 some odd years, some odder than others, you think I'd pick up a few things. I guess it really is hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
I have been getting lots of e-mail and some PM's from others with added support. Here's an example:

"Camo: Please don't give up the great tomato information. I have Cowlick's as one of my favorites, because of you. I have planted Dana's Dusky Rose this year and can't wait to try it, because of you. And, I am waiting to hear back from Dana about ordering a few German Johnson Benton variety because of you. Please don't let a few "have to get the last word in" people ruin it for the rest of us.

I respect your opinion of tomatoes and have many in my collection because of you. Please don't let Ms. Male or Travis get your feathers ruffled. Thanks for all you do and for all you contribute to the tomatoheads of the world."

I edited the name from the above. I tried to answer the PM but their malebox was full and I couldn't so I wanted to acknowledge it in someway and perhaps get the sender to empty their mailbox. So thanks for the support.
I was also going to edit the names from the last paragraph but decided to leave it untouched. This is done without any malice intended to any of the involved parties and I hope the sender can forgive me for quoting them, even if I left out their identity.
I thought it really strange that both mentioned having my feathers ruffled, but if you guys saw my bald head, you'd realize I have no feathers left to ruffle. Enjoy!
Camo

[carolyn137]

I respect your opinion of tomatoes and have many in my collection because of you. Please don't let Ms. Male or Travis get your feathers ruffled. Thanks for all you do and for all you contribute to the tomatoheads of the world."

*****

Just speaking for me, but I don't think I was trying to ruffle any feathers when asking for more information and also sharing my own views about adding personal names to known varieties, which are shared by some others as well. And Camo has answered that nicely. I've known Camo for several years now and we've e-mailed back and forth several times and he knows me pretty well as I do him.

Camo, since I was in current contact with the person who sent us the three portuguese tomato varieties and I knew you weren't, I shared with you that she wanted them all named Kukla this or that, to honor Larry Kukla who gave her the fruits from Joe, Larry having passed away after she got those fruits and she didn't know that until I asked her if she could find out more information. And as she said, Joe, the original source doesn't speak English very well so Larry was her contact. And I cut and pasted her response to me in that thread where folks were doing their grow out lists so you could see it. So I'm a bit surprised that you didn't want to change the variety names to Kukla this and that, as you wrote above since it was her preference. if the originator of a variety wants to change the name of a variety then I do it, but you received your seeds before Larry passed on so the seeds sent to you didn't have Kukla as part of the variety name.

If you look at my grow out list in that current thread you'll se several that have what I call working names and as soon as the person(s) who sent me the seeds can give me more information I can change the working name to whatever they want it to be called.

Yes, I have helped with the colors of some of the varieties you've grown and I'm not the only one. I know you've said before that you have problems with colors sometimes andmany of us know that b'c you've said so. I remember suggesting that you look at the color of the epidermis when deciding if a fruit was pink or red, knowing that red tomatoes have a yellow epidermis and pinks have a clear epidermis.

I've come a long way since I first SSE listed Anna Russian as a red, ahem, b'c way back then I didn't know about the different epidermis colors and how useful they can be in helping to know if a variety is red or pink, and with some other tomato color classes as well, but I use it only for red and pink, squinting at the peeled off epidermis and always using a known red and pink as controls when I do that.

[matilda'skid]

Where is this Dana's place where these tomatoes are available? The only objection I have to wonderful descriptions of tomatoes is that I don't know where to get them. A very nice person sent me Dana's Dusky Rose so I am trying it this year. I hope you all keep talking about tomatoes because without the discussion I would still be growing Celebrity and Early Girl. Sometimes the heated discussion brings out more information and I'm interested in it all.

[amideutch]

Dana's Place only sells plants. Here's the link to her site. Ami

http://www.danasgardenplace.com/page/page/6804296.htm

[b54red]

Camo, I find a lot of valuable information from you and am going to set out Tarasenko 6 and Dana's Dusky Rose for the first time this year because of your high recommendation. They may or may not fair well down here but I love trying great tasting tomatoes.

That Cowlicks that you spread was the first Brandywine type, other than Brandy Boy, that I have ever grown to the ripe fruit stage down here and it even survived getting TSWV early and yet still produced nearly 30 tomatoes. I would have loved to have seen what it would have done without TSWV.

Keep up the good work.

Bill

[travis]

Such a lot of touchy feedback over a simple, humorous comment. I guess from now on I'll reserve such explosive and hyper-critical pokes for Lancaster Lisa and others who apparently are bona fide targets for such.

[camochef]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I respect your opinion of tomatoes and have many in my collection because of you. Please don't let Ms. Male or Travis get your feathers ruffled. Thanks for all you do and for all you contribute to the tomatoheads of the world."

*****

Just speaking for me, but I don't think I was trying to ruffle any feathers when asking for more information and also sharing my own views about adding personal names to known varieties, which are shared by some others as well. And Camo has answered that nicely. I've known Camo for several years now and we've e-mailed back and forth several times and he knows me pretty well as I do him.

Camo, since I was in current contact with the person who sent us the three portuguese tomato varieties and I knew you weren't, I shared with you that she wanted them all named Kukla this or that, to honor Larry Kukla who gave her the fruits from Joe, Larry having passed away after she got those fruits and she didn't know that until I asked her if she could find out more information. And as she said, Joe, the original source doesn't speak English very well so Larry was her contact. And I cut and pasted her response to me in that thread where folks were doing their grow out lists so you could see it. So I'm a bit surprised that you didn't want to change the variety names to Kukla this and that, as you wrote above since it was her preference. if the originator of a variety wants to change the name of a variety then I do it, but you received your seeds before Larry passed on so the seeds sent to you didn't have Kukla as part of the variety name.

If you look at my grow out list in that current thread you'll se several that have what I call working names and as soon as the person(s) who sent me the seeds can give me more information I can change the working name to whatever they want it to be called.

Yes, I have helped with the colors of some of the varieties you've grown and I'm not the only one. I know you've said before that you have problems with colors sometimes andmany of us know that b'c you've said so. I remember suggesting that you look at the color of the epidermis when deciding if a fruit was pink or red, knowing that red tomatoes have a yellow epidermis and pinks have a clear epidermis.

I've come a long way since I first SSE listed Anna Russian as a red, ahem, b'c way back then I didn't know about the different epidermis colors and how useful they can be in helping to know if a variety is red or pink, and with some other tomato color classes as well, but I use it only for red and pink, squinting at the peeled off epidermis and always using a known red and pink as controls when I do that.

Carolyn,
I don't feel that you ruffled any feathers or upset me in any way and I hope my answer didn't sound as though I felt that way. I've always considered you a friend and an ally as well as a dependable advisor.
Yes it did bother me somewhat to change the names of the portugese tomatoes as it becomes a major effort to go back into seed jars and journals to change names. But that's all water under the bridge now as it's been taken care of.
I guess it's hard for someone thats so rigid in my habits to make changes, or as Mrs Camo says, someone that's so hard-headed.
I do have a lot of trouble with colors, I have to admit that has been something that has troubled me most of my life. Yes you've told me about epidermis colors more than once, but when I'm writing a review it's more or less spontanious, done at the kitchen table as I'm eating the tomatoes with salts, or seasonings or just plain and by the time I think of the color of the skin...it's usually gone.
Now I did take offense to the comment about another "new" tomato from Pennsylvania. This is probably due to my thin skin about Cowlick's. I've had so many rude remarks about my taking a Brandywine or it might have been labeled Pink Brandywine and calling it by the nursury name as it was so much more spectacular than any Brandywine, or Pink Brandywine I had growing, and I had quite a few of both. Not only was the plant so much more vigerous and superior to all the others, the fruit was larger and much more productive. The bottom line was they tasted so much better.
If you go back to that first years postings, you see that I initially thought it was Brandywine-Sudduth's because it was so much better. It wasn't until the following year when I included Brandywine-Sudduth's from 5-6 different sources of suppliers along with every other Brandywine I could find that I realized how much better it really was. The way I feel, it would never have been noticed or "discovered", by many other gardeners. I did keep the seed to myself those first couple years until a friend mentioned that he just couldn't get Brandywines to produce and I sent him a bag of seeds to try. It was from those seeds that the entire Cowlick adventure began Not only did they do well out in Kansas they did well almost everywhere. Some areas surprised even me. Through-out the U.S. up into Canada, people were bragging about their Cowlick's, then throughout Europe, Down in South Africa, over in the Philippines, yes, in the Phillipines! Who would have thought. People loved them, loved their production, loved their taste. I was like a proud father.
When I named Dana's Dusky Rose as the best tasting tomato of the year, the whole thing started all over again. Last year I thought Keith Mullers Bear Creek was the best tasting of the year just barely beating out Dana's Dusky Rose. My favorite Cowlick's dropped back to #11 that year although the R.L. variety of them did better at #2 for pinks. Too Many Tomatoes family heirloom Barlow Jap took #1 in the pinks.
So yes I get a little upset when someone posts a line about another "new" Pennsylvania tomato.
Wishing you the best in health and gardening as always.
Camo

[camochef]

Originally Posted by amideutch

Dana's Place only sells plants. Here's the link to her site. Ami

http://www.danasgardenplace.com/page/page/6804296.htm

Ami,
I've supplied Dana with an assortment of seeds the past couple years and I know she has passed some on to others. While this is not her usual way to do business it can happen or has happened. Last year was such a bad year for both of us that I didn't have seeds to share and actually had to beg for a few varieties just to plant this year.
She had a terrible time with late blight the year before in her own gardens, and last year the extreme drought and hot weather destroyed all the local gardens. Last year was also the first year we had a stinkbug plague and from what I'm seeing already this year...it might be a lot worse.
I'd like to see those that like heirloom tomatoes and other plants and live in the South Central Pa./Maryland areas support her this season. She has the best assortment of Heirlooms in the area. She's also responsable for getting me involved with heirlooms, along with Carolyn and her Heirloom tomato book.
Camo

[nctomatoman]

As someone living in NC, German Johnson has always been somewhat of a mystery to me....especially the lack of real information on its origin (I've never seen it listed in any old seed catalog...). My assumption - a guess, really - has been that it is a tomato of German origin (not unusual for the large pink fruited varieties) that became associated with a family named Johnson.

It seems as though the "original" was likely regular leaf - when you go to farmers markets in the area and see German Johnson seedlings, they are exclusively regular leaf - and the original listings in the SSE are regular leaf. I don't think it is a case of GJ throwing both leaf types - my feeling is that one of the older PL pinks was offered in a market as German Johnson for the name recognition - and somehow got into the mix. If you sell big pink tomatoes in NC, you will sell far more calling them German Johnson than calling them Brandywine, for example.

Interestingly, I got a few lovely large fruit called German Johnson that someone brought to Tomatopalooza last year. I started seeds - and lo and behold, they are all PL!

Just one of those mysteries that may never be definitively solved...which is not atypical of course.

[tyrupp]

Out of the german johnson seedlings that i have ,the regular leaf one is the biggest. Do you think it would be wrong to name big johnson ?

[camochef]

Originally Posted by b54red

Camo, I find a lot of valuable information from you and am going to set out Tarasenko 6 and Dana's Dusky Rose for the first time this year because of your high recommendation. They may or may not fair well down here but I love trying great tasting tomatoes.

That Cowlicks that you spread was the first Brandywine type, other than Brandy Boy, that I have ever grown to the ripe fruit stage down here and it even survived getting TSWV early and yet still produced nearly 30 tomatoes. I would have loved to have seen what it would have done without TSWV.

Keep up the good work.

Bill

Bill,
Thanks for the kind comments. I hope T6 and DDR both do very well down your way. While T6 was my best tasting red last year and did quite well the year before, it hasn't had the reported success from down south as Cowlick's has.
DDR has had a little better response but not that many from the deep south, so I'm hopeful that they will do well.
DDR was right behind Bear Creek last season for best tasting black and the year before it was my best tasting tomato over all.
I hope you solved your TSWV problem and that you have a great gardening season ahead of you! Enjoy!
Camo

[camochef]

Originally Posted by tyrupp

Out of the german johnson seedlings that i have ,the regular leaf one is the biggest. Do you think it would be wrong to name big johnson ?

Actually, I found the Regular Leaf German Johnsons to be larger and more plentiful than the Potato Leafed also.
Thing is they weren't as large as the Dana's "German Johnson Benton Variety" so maybe, "Not Quite as Big Johnson" would fit better.