"Illegal" propagation

[travis]

I have seen huge fields of tomatoes claimed to be Santa Sweets growing in central Florida in the Peace River area. You can examine hundreds of boxes of these so-called Santa Sweets at the produce markets down there in season. There are very distinct variations in shapes and sizes of the fruit, as well as some variation in skin tone. I'm talking grape shapes, olive shapes, pear shapes, plum shapes, and both red/orange and crimson skin tones, some with yellow shoulders and some with uniform ripening.

My guess is there are a bunch of commercial growers who don't bother starting with F1 seeds, and are growing whatever they've saved over the years. My point is I don't really think you'd get 100% consistent results growing out seeds saved from F1 Santa Sweets, if in fact you're buying F1 Santa Sweets to begin with. Close, but not 100% consistent.

[sandrina2]

Originally Posted by travis

My guess is there are a bunch of commercial growers who don't bother starting with F1 seeds, and are growing whatever they've saved over the years. My point is I don't really think you'd get 100% consistent results growing out seeds saved from F1 Santa Sweets, if in fact you're buying F1 Santa Sweets to begin with. Close, but not 100% consistent.

Travis, I've been using seeds I collected from the actual Santa Sweet tomatoes packaged by Procacci Bros. They are supposedly the only ones who grow the real thing. On their site they say exactly what you say-- that the F2,F3, etc. are inferior in shape and flavor. (Of course they would say that.) However, Carolyn has posted above, if I understand her correctly, that the later generations are 99/100% stable.
http://www.procaccibrothers.com/sweets.htm

sandrina2

[Wi-sunflower]

I saved seeds from fruit the first year Santa's were in the super market so I believe I got the real thing. While I haven't been consistent at growing them out to up the F number, I am at F-3 or 4 and I've seen absolutely no difference in shape in what I grow. I can't tell you about flavor tho as red tomatoes aren't my favs in the first place.

Carol

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by sandrina2

Travis, I've been using seeds I collected from the actual Santa Sweet tomatoes packaged by Procacci Bros. They are supposedly the only ones who grow the real thing. On their site they say exactly what you say-- that the F2,F3, etc. are inferior in shape and flavor. (Of course they would say that.) However, Carolyn has posted above, if I understand her correctly, that the later generations are 99/100% stable.
http://www.procaccibrothers.com/sweets.htm

sandrina2

Absolutely right that they would discourage folks from saving F2 seeds from the F1 fruits. After all, they're the ones who brought a law suit against Andrew Chu and want to protect what they gained.

Andrew has had more experience than anyone I know in growing Santa F1 and I got to know him and as I said above, it was he who gave me the data I posted.

Travis, occasionally Martha, the lady who does my grocery shopping for me, brings to me a pint of two of Santa Sweets and on the label it says something like....the original Santa F1, and they have always been red grapes and no other shapes.

And no, I don't save any seeds.

So I don't know what's happening in FL to cause such variability in fruit shape if indeed their growers are actually growing Santa F1's which seed they have access to via that seed Co in Taiwan.

Thompson and Morgan has been selling Santa F1 seed but I didn't check to see if they still are. THe law suit pertains to no seed for Santa F1 being sold in the US. Last I knew Andrew was still marketing Santa F1's and getting his seed somewhere in Europe.

[travis]

I wasn't talking about the Santa Sweets sold in little plastic clam shells in the grocery stores. I'm talking about the ones sold in 25-pound boxes at the wholesale produce markets, and I suppose they end up in restaurant salads and such.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by travis

I wasn't talking about the Santa Sweets sold in little plastic clam shells in the grocery stores. I'm talking about the ones sold in 25-pound boxes at the wholesale produce markets, and I suppose they end up in restaurant salads and such.

Got it travis, as in the good stuff is packaged for retail, say money, and the misfits are sold in large boxes wholesale elsewhere.

Like you, it makes what to think those large commercial farmers really are growing to get so many offtypes/misfits.

[travis]

If the program running this site were to accept one word posts, I would've just said "MONEY"

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by travis

If the program running this site were to accept one word posts, I would've just said "MONEY"

And even though the word MONEY was at the end of a complete sentence it's the WORD.

[gourmetgardener]

Originally Posted by Jeannine Anne

I grow Rose de Roscoff onions which are protected to a very small area of France, does that make me a crook.. seeds are not available for sale, you have to get the onions , regrow them and save the seeds.

What about the Pepperdew?

Interesting topic, I shall watch with interest.

XX Jeannine

Rose De Roscoff is not really a protected variety - it's an OP variety dating back from the 17th century, but you just can't use the name outside of a certain region of france, it's properly called the Keravel Onion - same thing goes with Walla Walla or Vidalia onions.

[gourmetgardener]

I've seen pretty variable results saving seed - it depends on the level of isolation from other tomatoes. Personally, I would look for alternatives - I personally think the sister varieties to Campari are every bit as good, if not better - I've grown both Okapi and Adoration on my farm (Newer varieties from the same breeder as Campari. For Santa types, I think Amsterdam F1 is better than the original Santa. Try Paramount Seeds.

[jmhewitt]

We love the Campari tomatoes that we get at Costco in the winter.

Currently however one of my favorite tomatoes is the Fourth of July.....planted plants from Burpee on 7 April and was picking my first tomatos from these plants on the third of June.....still picking now in July, and they are very tasty but have gotten a little smaller. they do not ripen all together on the truss, but they look very much like a Campari truss on the plant. wonderful flavor! I had 8 of them as an appetizer tonight - cut in half and salted...

they say 49 days to maturity.....I don't get that, but not much more....

trouble free plants - no BER or blight problems.

not worth messing with the Campari in the summertime...

Michael Hewitt .....in the swamp, Hampstead, NC

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by gourmetgardener

I've seen pretty variable results saving seed - it depends on the level of isolation from other tomatoes. Personally, I would look for alternatives - I personally think the sister varieties to Campari are every bit as good, if not better - I've grown both Okapi and Adoration on my farm (Newer varieties from the same breeder as Campari. For Santa types, I think Amsterdam F1 is better than the original Santa. Try Paramount Seeds.

Some folks are on the F6 and F7 with the OP Santa, formerly F1 and most of the seed being traded is OK so I think that self pollenization is very high, which is good.

And with regard to Campari I think it might be worthwhile to try Mountain Magic F1, bred by Dr. Randy Gardner which is also noted to be a Compari type. With his persmission I offered seeds for it and two others he bred, Smarty F1 now at johnny's and also Plum Regal F1. I think that was two years ago here.

Mountain Magic F1 seeds are now available at several seed sites and I, for one, have been very impressed with it, but have not grown the alternatives you spoke to above.

In general I don't grow many hybrids; just a personal decision.

[travis]

jmhewitt, grow some plants from 4th of July saved seeds, and you will get some very nice potato leaf segregants.

[jmhewitt]

travis: nice in what way? better than Fourth of July? earlier, tastier, bigger?

Michael Hewitt

[tommytonk]

Isnt it true that monsanto has patented the genes of wild tomatoes?

tommy