What do you think of this? "Expert" recommends not using saved seed

[miken]

Here in Nebraska there are also annual continuing education and community service requirements to remain a Master Gardener.

[remy]

Originally Posted by miken

Here's the short version of what they teach ag students at both the undergraduate and graduate level:

Some seeds from hybrid plants are sterile, many will not grow true to type.

She also pointed out that in some cases, saving seeds is illegal. (This practice, known as brown bagging, is generating lawsuits, especially in the wheat industry.)

There are sterile hybrids, but I do find they are more common (though still rare) in flowers than in vegetables. Flowers more often have interspecies crosses which can be likened to mules. Vegetables don't have those kinds of crosses happening. I think somehow the flower sterility info got confused by someone at some point, and then that info got out. Once wrong info get out it is often hard to erase from people's minds.

Selling seeds, I have received wholesale vegetable seeds catalogs that sell Monsanto GMO seeds. Those seeds when purchased must be accompanied with signed waivers saying no seed will be saved plus a bunch of other stuff. These waivers are only for those seeds. The regular hybrids don't have them since the farmers know they don't breed true, and they must repurchase seed every year (or they think they are sterile.)

Originally Posted by JerryL

This person commented that she taught horticulture. The conversation continued around tomatoes, our CHOPTAG group and the seed saving process. I don’t remember the exact comment I made that led this teacher to say that saved seeds from hybrids would not germinate. I asked if she was referring to a specific plant and she said “no all hybrids”. I started to explain that hybrid seeds would indeed germinate but the resulting product would be unknown. She refused to even listen to my ‘theory’ so I moved on.

I feel sorry for her students.

You remind me of the local garden "expert" who is often on TV and sometimes writes for the paper. She had an article about vegetable gardening and said it wasn't worth it to start from seed!!! That you might as well just by from the local nurseries. I was not happy. I of course frequent the local nurseries often, and they should be supported, but to state it wasn't worth it to start from seed is ridiculous.
Remy

[lakelady]

Interesting comments. I have issues with big biz pushing out small biz, and I definately have issues with all of the messing around we do with mother nature. In another life I worked for big Pharma and many newly introduced "wonder drugs" came onto market with big hopes for big dollars, only to find over time, there were terrible side effects including death. But that's my GMO stance. Monsanto is no better than Big Pharma to me personally.

As far as MG goes, my opinion is that anyone, with any type of certification, should be retested and recertified. For goodness sakes, we all know those who have attained a certain degree, education, etc., only to become stagnant because they don't keep up with new data and information. If people are counting on you to help them, I think then you should be as informed as possible, and why not. Then again, I'm one of those who feels we should make seniors requalify for driving tests so they can be kept off the road if they truly should not be driving anymore (I work with seniors, I see it all the time!)

Carolyn, thanks making clearer that which I failed to do (lol). I'm no scientist, but I was wondering about that myself... without the OP varieities, how would they get the hybrids anyhow unless someone went and saved those old variety seeds in the first place. There must have been something good in them, because many of them were used as the basis for the hybrids in breed selection.

I love the wide variety of responses I get on this forum, it sure makes it interesting

[feldon30]

Bad advice given in the guise of "education" always scares me.


My concern about many Master Gardener programs is their promotion of one-size-fits-all hybrids and chemical solutions to most problems. Creative thinking is not encouraged. I briefly considered becoming a Master Gardener but I could not in good conscience repeat "facts" I don't personally believe in.

[ScottinAtlanta]

I have never been a fan of government-required certifications, becuause it creates a protected class of people who are more interested in certification than in quality. Why not allow anyone to call himself a Master Gardener, and just show the results? I can call myself a Master Writer, a Master Chef, a Master Painter, etc, without any government at all. Why not open the doors of Master Gardener to the fresh air of consumer choice? Just my view.

[tam91]

I've asked the master gardeners for advice a few times. Once, they were useful. The rest of the time... no.

[nctomatoman]

I've interacted with Master Gardeners quite often - they have a booth set up to take questions during the time I sell seedlings, and I've been asked to speak tomatoes to them quite a number of times. All I can say is that the knowledge is far more breadth than depth....and many of them will be the first to tell you that even at that there are significant gaps. I don't have to go too deep in my talks to get into things that they've no idea about. I've also noticed some syndicated newspaper columns on tomatoes written my MGs that are riddled with inaccuracies. And if I send a nicely worded email to offer a different point of view, I've never gotten a "thank you" or response of any kind! Often they are just peddling some product whose company must be sponsoring them to some degree.

I think the big problem is that those of us who do dive deep know such things and can spot such instances....but the general readers who tend to believe whatever they read - esp. if it is written by a MG - are easily misinformed.

I've never had any interest in all in going through the MG program, either.

[miken]

I think the Master Gardener education is likely to vary depending on the instructors. My wife's MG courses included a lot of information on organic gardening, rain barrels and low water use planting, native grasses and plant usage, etc. I didn't get the impression it was slanted towards hybrid plant usage, though that's what's most readily available.

Some of the sessions were taught by the same professors she works with every day, others were taught by extension service staff. A few she thought were largely a waste of time, because she already knew more on the subject because of her job.

The more reliable experts are those who are aware of what it is they don't know, and say so.

[ddsack]

I can't diss the program entirely, because I think there is a wide range of ability in the Master Gardener program, just like any other self study course. A couple of local ladies who have been avid gardeners for years, do regular summer call-in shows on the local radio station, and seem to give good generic advice, whether because of their past personal experience, or from course material, I couldn't say.

I think the people who already bring much experience to the table, and go for the MG certification as a means of supplementing their knowledge, say on chemical use or disease identification probably do come out of it with useful knowledge. On the other hand, I know of a couple that both went through the program in another state, never fail to proudly brag that they are Master Gardeners, and frankly I would not trust them to mow my lawn.

I've flirted with the idea just as something to do, but I'm too cheap to pay the tuition fee, especially for stuff I can research on my own, and I don't have the time or patience to wade through basic rote info that I may not agree with.

[Tania]

It is very sad how much of bad advice and misinformation is going around saving tomato seeds, OP vs. hybrids, etc.

It is also very upsetting to see the examples of people not willing to learn the basics and facts, especially these people pose as 'experts'.

[lakelady]

I guess it really is like anything else in life...there are those who are truly experts (whether certified or not doesn't matter, they have a passion for their field of study), and those who recite what they've learned without really knowing what it means or being able to understand "why" they are taught something. I've learned a whole lot here in such a short time by many of you who really are experts at growing tomatoes .

[Tormato]

Originally Posted by miken

If NO tomato seeds were saved from one year to the next by ANYONE, where would the seeds for next year's tomatoes come from?

Genetic mutation can happen at any time, to any seed bearing plant, even with OP seeds. The odds are rather small, but not zero.

My wife is a Master Gardener, they didn't spend much time in class on vegetables, or for that matter on any one subject, though I think they spent more time on flowers than anything else. Some of the lessons were excellent, like the one on greenhouses, which I took as well. Others were less useful. The Master Gardener program gives someone an introduction to a large number of issues, but it really doesn't make that person an expert on any one subject.

I also got the impression the instructors spent more time having their students 'unlearn' things that they thought they knew but had fouled up, than imparting 'new' knowledge. (The sections on city codes corrected a lot of things we thought we knew, including a few things our builder had wrong that we wished we had known when we built our house!)

Where would next year's seed come from? The to_ _ _ _ fairy.

Tormato

Not a Master Gardener, more of a Master BSer

[miken]

There are sterile hybrids, but I do find they are more common (though still rare) in flowers than in vegetables.

I would think sterility is more of a desired feature in an ornamental, (especially perennials) because that usually means they bloom but don't generate fruit/seeds. If a tomato doesn't set fruit, what good is it?

[dice]

I think the original problem was a mis-communication without sufficient
context to make the meaning clear. "Saving seeds is worthless" is true
in one narrow sense: if you are growing commercial hybrids, then
saving seeds from those will not produce the same fruits or vegetables
the next generation when those seeds are planted. It is certainly not
true for open-pollenated varieties of fruits and vegetables like those
commonly traded by Tomatovillians.

Even then, growing hybrids, "worthless" or "useless" is overstating
the case. I let hybrid swiss chard go to seed one year in a garden,
and it has had naturalized swiss chard growing there ever since.
There are about 4 kinds of chard there, with various
cross-pollenations between them turning up occasionally.
While none of them reproduce the original hybrid, they are all
edible with good enough flavor to eat, and diseased plants are
rare.

[gixxerific]

Dang, we were wrong all the time. How silly of us.

I'm going to throw all my seeds away right now.