Kardia Karpos

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Tania

So there are the usual complications of sharing the seed that is not a single stable variety.

It sounds like Gary's goal was to get a PL pink heart?

Yes, Tania, that was his goal but he also said that anything else would be a guess when he first contacted me about the possibility of my offering the seeds in my seed offer.

I'd have to check all my PM's between Gary and myself but I think there was something red somewhere in the past, but Gary did say that he would put up the history which , when he did for me I said something like it's a mystery to me and he agreed.

If you look at his post #9 he was describing his results this year.

Knowing that it wasn't a stable variety I sent out many more seeds to each person who requested them so that they'd have a better chance of seeing what was there. So instead of 5-6 seeds/variety for 2010 seeds I sent out about 10-12 seeds for the 2010 KK seeds.

As to sharing seeds of what folks get, that's up to them maybe, although I'll let Gary speak to that first, and they all knew from the get go that it wasn't stable b'c I put experimental in the description of the seed offer.

I can't speak for Gary, but I know I hoped that those who got the seeds and saw something they liked would save seeds from those plants/fruits and continue to do growouts until they had something stable.

I do know that Gary wanted to see the results that folks got with KK, thus this thread. And if he wants to speak to sharing of F2 or F3 or whatever seeds I think that's his call entirely.

In the thread on italian Striped the subject got around to Flathead Indian and I noted where that came from, what the one parent was known to be, that Bill Jeffers had sent F2 seeds to Suze and she sent F3 seeds to me at Bill's suggestion. So sharing does occur as I know you know. Lots of folks do their own crosses or get unstable ones from someone else and then want help in growing them out.

Also, would you please take a look at the Italian Striped picture that was just put up in that thread and see if it resembles anything you've seen. I'm going to check out Territorial b'c I thought I saw something just like that listed there either last year or the year before, or even now.

Thanks so much if you could do that.

[Mark0820]

Originally Posted by Mark0820

It is loading up with fruit now, so it appears it would be a productive variety under better weather conditions. However, I'm not sure if these fruit will ripen before the first frost or not.

From the late fruit that set, I have a combination of blunt hearts and pointed hearts. I'm still not sure whether any of these late fruit will ripen or not. In a typical year, we get our first frost around mid October (but there is nothing typical about the weather this year).

[Mark0820]

Originally Posted by Mark0820

From the late fruit that set, I have a combination of blunt hearts and pointed hearts. I'm still not sure whether any of these late fruit will ripen or not. In a typical year, we get our first frost around mid October (but there is nothing typical about the weather this year).

One of my pointed hearts ripened, so I am in the process of saving seed from it (I already have seed from a blunt heart). There is a large pointed heart on the plant that I am hoping will ripen (to save seeds). It has turned from dark green to a light yellow/green, so it should blush any day. However, the night time temperatures are supposed to be in the low 30's for Thurs., Friday and Saturday, so I might have to bring it in the house and see if it will ripen.

[Tormato]

Mark,

On the ripe one, pink or red?

I should be able to post the background history/mystery on Thursday or Friday.

Gary

[Mark0820]

Originally Posted by Tormato

Mark,

On the ripe one, pink or red?

I should be able to post the background history/mystery on Thursday or Friday.

Gary

Pink. I didn't have any red.

[Tormato]

Here's the history/mystery.

This PL plant, with pink heart [Kardia]-shaped fruit [Karpos], showed up in my garden in 2010. I had labeled it as coming from second generation saved seed of a 2 lb+ pink beefsteak. This tomato was acquired at an unattended roadside stand in 2003. I later went back to the source, only to find an elderly couple who didn't speak English. So, the origins of this tomato, beyond the stand, remains a mystery.

There is also the possibility that my labeling was wrong, although I don't know of any mislabeling in my several years of gardening. The reason I say it is possible is because I was also trialing plants from a source that produced two other PL hearts (Tastiheart and Heshpole). This source was Chuck Wyatt, sometime around 2001-2002, the variety was Large Pink Bulgarian. Because PL hearts are very rare (I've heard of about a dozen varieties), and one showed up in my garden while I was trialing seed that produced PL hearts, it may or may not have been a mislabeling on my part. All of my plants labeled as LPB produced PL pink "rough" beefsteaks.

Also in 2010, I trialed several plants from the above 2nd generation seed. Most produced PL beefsteaks (a couple of reds along with many pinks), but one produced only four tomatoes, two of which were blunt hearts. This years trial of saved seed again produced a mix of beefsteaks and blunt hearts on the one trialed plant. I doubt that I had two mislabeled plants in 2010, so it is most likely, but not impossible, that the labeling was correct.

On a side note, I had a total of four PL plants produce hearts last year. In addition to the two above, Aunt Ginny's Purple and Pruden's (Prudence) Purple had 1-2 blunt hearts, out of 20+ fruit on each plant. Of several plants of each this year, from saved seed of only the heart shaped fruit, I had one plant of Pruden's produce blunt hearts and irregular shaped beefsteaks. All of the other plants were true to type for AGP and Pruden's.

Gary

[Tania]

Gary,

Thank you so much for the story!

Reading your post, I am wondering if you seeing some blunt hearts instead of beefsteaks is something that was caused by environmental conditions...

I sometimes see both beefsteaks and blunt hearts on my bi-colors (different varieties, different years) - they start out producing normal beefsteak fruit, and later in the season they start producing slightly heart-shaped fruits, I can certainly call them blunt hearts.

Just a thought... but it may explain the shape variability you are observing.

Tania

[Tormato]

Tania,

Yes, I've considered environmental conditions. I've had heart shaped fruit show up on many beefsteak plants, over the years. It's only been one or two fruit on a plant, though. My estimate would be about 5% hearts/95% beefsteaks. When it's about 50/50, I'm not sure what to think.

One thing I've noticed when 1 or 2 show up on a plant, the blossom scar is but a tiny dot, while the beefsteaks on the same plant have large, and usually irregular shaped blossom scars. Also, many of these heart shaped fruit wll be hooked to one side, not straight.

I hope the history explains that "Kardia Karpos" is not a variety. It is a generic term ("heart fruit" as translated into English from Greek), for now. With the various heart shaped tomatoes, RL and PL, that I'm working on to stabilize, keeping one in Greek helps me sort things out a little easier.

In a thread drift, Doubloon is not yet stable. Fruit from F2 to F4, for me, grew out true to type. In the past two years, trialing F5's and F6's, I have not had a single plant true to type. I'll likely have to make a request in the "wanted" section for seed from anyone who has had correct type fruit for the past two years.

Also, did you see the background on Perpetual Change?

Gary

[Tania]

Originally Posted by Tormato

Tania,

Yes, I've considered environmental conditions. I've had heart shaped fruit show up on many beefsteak plants, over the years. It's only been one or two fruit on a plant, though. My estimate would be about 5% hearts/95% beefsteaks. When it's about 50/50, I'm not sure what to think.

Gary, I'd call it 'irregular shapes'

Originally Posted by Tormato

Also, did you see the background on Perpetual Change?

Nope - do you know anything about this tomato?
EDIT: I just looked at the thread about Perpetual change - somehow I was not getting any email notifications, so I missed all the replies!


I am curious about Doubloon - what kind of variability did you observed in later generations?

[Mark0820]

Originally Posted by Mark0820

There is a large pointed heart on the plant that I am hoping will ripen (to save seeds). It has turned from dark green to a light yellow/green, so it should blush any day. However, the night time temperatures are supposed to be in the low 30's for Thurs., Friday and Saturday, so I might have to bring it in the house and see if it will ripen.

I brought the large pointed heart in the house, and this morning I noticed a small streak of pink. Once it ripens, I will save seed. If I have room next year, I will plant a few of these seeds and see if I get pointed hearts or a combination of pointed and blunt hearts.

[Mark0820]

Gary,

I was reading another post from 2007 where you mentioned Levino. Was this the same roadside stand (for Kardia Karpos) where you got your Pink Cadillac tomato?

I have limited growing space, so I probably won't be able to grow Kardia Karpos this year. If you want, I can send you some seeds from my biggest and most pointed heart from last year. It was too late in the year to take taste into consideration, so the selection was based entirely on shape and size. However, all of my Kardia Karpos tasted just as good as any other pink I grew last year. It was my first year growing pinks, and in general, I found them to be more mild tasting than reds (don't know if weather played into this or not). All of my hearts were straightened.

If you don't want any seed, that is fine too. Just thought I would offer.

[doublehelix]

Originally Posted by Tormato

I started 17 containers with three seeds in each. All 51 seeds germinated, 50 PL, 1 RL.

This is genetically impossible if you only saved seeds from potato leaf plants.

Something went wrong.

[Tormato]

Genetically impossible? I wouldn't know.

Something went wrong? In a round about way, likely.

The 1 RL plant produced very small, red globes. The previous year I only had one plant in my garden that had anything close to that. It was supposed to be Sungold F1, but it wasn't. It produced awful tasting red cherries. Since I didn't care about the plant I neglected it. So, it spread out in all directions, way beyond the border of my rows. Every time I walked by, I was covered in its pollen. The guess is that this pollen got onto the "Kardia Karpos" plant, and pollinated half of a double blossom. The something that went wrong was trusting B_ _ _ _e to have the correct variety.

Mark,

"Kardia Karpos" came from the fourth generation of my saved seed of Pink Cadillac.

[Paul R]

10 seeds of Kardia Karpas (Carolyn's seed offer) were sown this morning.
Let the show begin.

Paul R

[ginger2778]

[QUOTE=Tormato;250565]Genetically impossible? I wouldn't know.

Something went wrong? In a round about way, likely.

The something that went wrong was trusting B_ _ _ _e to have the correct variety.



It's something like "he whose name shall not be mentioned"