Russian Cossack - Page 2

Minnesota Mato · September 7, 2012

I love the fact that we can select our own path for a tomato but I too had no clue they were not stable. This makes it more attractive to me as I am starting to breed my own and love selecting different variations. What is the protocol if there is 10 different variations all called russian cossack? If you spend 5 more years stablizing it, do you name it something else?

Boutique Tomatoes · September 8, 2012

I believe protocol is once you've stabilized your own unique strain you can rename it giving credit to the original breeder.

Problem is some of the intermediate generations. For example Shadow Boxing seems to be all over the place, I'd love to try several segregations but what they should be called is a question. "Dwarf Shadow Boxing with stripes and antho shading" vs "Indeterminate Shadow Boxing elongated with antho" anyone?

RobinB · September 9, 2012

I just wish I'd been told that they were not stable. I didn't CHOOSE to add three more "experimental" tomatoes to my lineup. Yes, as I mentioned in my earlier entry, it is kind of fun to grow things and not know what you're going to get, but I would have liked to have been able to choose whether or not I did.

It just seems a very strange way to breed tomatoes. You sell unstable seeds for $5 per pack and you don't tell people that fact, and then we are left entirely on our own....

I can't help comparing this to the Dwarf Tomato Project, which I willingly signed up to do. It is ORGANIZED. We are not kept in the dark... we know what the two parents of each new line are, we can see what other gardeners are getting, and we can post results and photos. I feel like I'm a PART of something. We then send back seeds to a central place (thank you Craig!) at the end of the season. I just think that if I was breeding tomatoes, I would want more control over things. Now, as Mark points out, there will be many different versions of each floating around there... and with multiple names? It sounds like a nightmare.

delltraveller · September 9, 2012

Tom's goals and the Dwarf Tomato Project's goals are different, RobinB. Part of Tom's goal is more about getting genes out there in the world for everyone to use, keeping the genetic diversity alive and working in collaboration, sort of like open source computer programs. So, yes, a lot of what you get to do with his seeds is participate in the adventure. And that can be disappointing if that wasn't what you were hoping and planning for. And if you aren't familiar with Tom and how he works, you can be surprised in a not good way. And it can make a person feel a bit grumpy, doggone it!

My Russian Cossack looks a bit silly in it's location. I was expecting something in the pink to black range and medium size-ish. So there it sits, all little and red and dashed gold, in a comparison row of pink-black beefsteak-ish tomatoes, like the Sesame Street song proclaimed, " One of these things is not like the others..."

Drop me a PM, RobinB, if you'd like some seeds from some of the stable varieties that Tom developed for commercial release---Green Zebra, Banana Cream/Cream Sausage, Green Sleeves/Green Sausage, Summer Cider---or a few seeds for Bing Cherry, which seems pretty stable.

Boutique Tomatoes · September 9, 2012

I do understand the confusion, and in this spring had approached Tom about our redoing his web site for him to bring everything under one domain and try to make information a bit easier to come by. Unfortunately after a little back and forth it kind of fizzled.

Helsing ★★★★★★★★ Blues also appears stable, all the plants I had were identical this year as far as fruit appearance and taste. I believe this one has been out for a few years.

RobinB · September 10, 2012

I did sound a bit grumpy didn't I? I had argued, cajoled and threatened my 2nd grader (whom I homeschool) all day and I WAS grumpy! I just like to plan everything out, not that everything ever goes according to the plan.

Back to Russian Cossack... my plant with the ruffly, oblate fruit is getting some blue on tops of the fruit in the sun-- just in the last week!

RIPEN. RIPEN. RIPEN!!!

delltraveller · September 10, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobinB

Back to Russian Cossack... my plant with the ruffly, oblate fruit is getting some blue on tops of the fruit in the sun-- just in the last week!

RIPEN. RIPEN. RIPEN!!!

Aww, shucks! Now I'm gonna be grumpy 'cause you got cooler looking fruits!

Boutique Tomatoes · September 10, 2012

Yes, I see blue shading and stripes on a bigger tomato than any of the blue varieties I grew this year, so I'm jealous as well...

I'm saying a little prayer that when you get one without BER it tastes amazing...

RobinB · September 10, 2012

That's okay, I'll share! I just hope the taste is good. The one fruit that I got was such a pretty color.

I just had to go out there and tie up one branch that couldn't hold up its fruit any longer. It's a really short plant, 30" or so, and all of it's blossoms came in sprays on the top. It almost doesn't look like the plant is made for fruit this size! It definitely needs more support than I gave it, and I really haven't been paying a lot of attention to this plant, other than to glance at the fruit to look for a blush. I'd say they are probably in the 4-6oz range right now, but there are three on that one branch, and one is from a megabloom that has swallowed the stem.

RobinB · September 22, 2012

Here we are. Deep raspberry color with green stripes, 5.8 oz. The others on the plant are a few days away from being ripe. I'll probably end up with 10 to 12 fruit, all approximately this size, from one plant. It's definitely determinate. The taste was really very good. This one fruit was picked earlier than I'd like, and ripened inside, because of bird activity on the plant next door. Now this entire plant is wrapped in lightweight row cover, though. I should be able to let the others ripen all the way on the plant. Weather should hold, seed was saved from this one tomato though... today was 87 and tonight should be in the high 40s. The 10-day forecast has highs in the low 80s with night time temps lowering to the mid 40s.

My other Russian Cossack finally gave up a fruit today. Small, oval, 0.9 oz. It looks like it might turn into the same raspberry color with aggressive dark green stripes. It has an overall fine blueish dusting almost as fine as an airbrush would make. It's not totally ripe, but it fell off. I'll photograph it when it ripens.

I'll definitely be growing this out next year.

Do I get to name the bigger one, or do we call it Russian Cossack?

**carolyn137** · September 23, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobinB

Here we are. Deep raspberry color with green stripes, 5.8 oz. The others on the plant are a few days away from being ripe. I'll probably end up with 10 to 12 fruit, all approximately this size, from one plant. It's definitely determinate. The taste was really very good. This one fruit was picked earlier than I'd like, and ripened inside, because of bird activity on the plant next door. Now this entire plant is wrapped in lightweight row cover, though. I should be able to let the others ripen all the way on the plant. Weather should hold, seed was saved from this one tomato though... today was 87 and tonight should be in the high 40s. The 10-day forecast has highs in the low 80s with night time temps lowering to the mid 40s.

My other Russian Cossack finally gave up a fruit today. Small, oval, 0.9 oz. It looks like it might turn into the same raspberry color with aggressive dark green stripes. It has an overall fine blueish dusting almost as fine as an airbrush would make. It's not totally ripe, but it fell off. I'll photograph it when it ripens.

I'll definitely be growing this out next year.

Do I get to name the bigger one, or do we call it Russian Cossack?

As to naming selections made, in one of the earlier posts it was said that Tom wanted the selections sent back to him and I suppose he'd name them, I think Mark said that and then more recently Mark said that he thought that it was Ok to name something as long as the name of the breeder was recognized.

Should someone contact Tom about these two opinions and ask what he wants done?

Boutique Tomatoes · September 23, 2012

Tom's hopes are that interesting segregations are sent back to him for possible use/grow out but I believe the answer usually given is that once a grower has taken a line out several generations and stabilized it they can name it while giving attribution to the original breeder.

I believe Vintage Wine came out of Tom's early release of Brandystripe this way.

I know Tom has been asking growers to send seed back as he didn't have a great tomato season this year, I'd send him a PM and find out if this is one he'd like back.

delltraveller · September 23, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobinB

Here we are. Deep raspberry color with green stripes, 5.8 oz. The others on the plant are a few days away from being ripe. I'll probably end up with 10 to 12 fruit, all approximately this size, from one plant. It's definitely determinate. The taste was really very good.

Now there's the tomato I expected to see! You lucky dog, RobinB! That tomato would look right at home in my row with the Pink Berkeley Tie Dye, Arbuznyi, Black Bear.....

Very nice pictures!

maf · September 23, 2012

That is a very nice looking tomato, RobinB.

I think it is inevitable that selections from Tom Wagner's lines will be renamed, otherwise there would be a hundred different 'Russian Cossacks' and a whole world of confusion from the people trying to grow the saved seeds. As long as the pedigree is noted as a selection from Tom Wagner's Russian Cossack line I believe the obligation of respect to the breeder is fulfilled. At the end of the day, the person who bought the seeds is the new owner of them and is in a position to do with the growouts whatever they want, including naming selections from unstable lines.

Personally I would always share the seeds back with Tom Wagner if I received some feedback from him that the tomato in question was a selection he was interested in.

RobinB · September 24, 2012

Yes, delltraveller, it does remind me of Pink BTD, but it is a brighter pink. My Pink BTDs this year have gotten quite dark when they are completely ripe. You sound like you might be familiar with Russian Cossack or its lineage... are you? Do tell!

I will save as much seed from this tomato as I can. The weather should give me enough time, the birds I can't control.

Mark, thanks for offering to PM Tom Wagner. I don't know him at all! I will, of course send him whatever seed I can, if he says he is interested. Keep me posted!

Let's see how many tomatoes actually ripen, and I'll be happy to share seed with others if I end up with enough.

Robin

September 7, 2012	#16
Minnesota Mato Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: minnesota Posts: 175	I love the fact that we can select our own path for a tomato but I too had no clue they were not stable. This makes it more attractive to me as I am starting to breed my own and love selecting different variations. What is the protocol if there is 10 different variations all called russian cossack? If you spend 5 more years stablizing it, do you name it something else?

September 8, 2012	#17
Boutique Tomatoes Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Northeast Wisconsin, Zone 5a Posts: 1,109	I believe protocol is once you've stabilized your own unique strain you can rename it giving credit to the original breeder. Problem is some of the intermediate generations. For example Shadow Boxing seems to be all over the place, I'd love to try several segregations but what they should be called is a question. "Dwarf Shadow Boxing with stripes and antho shading" vs "Indeterminate Shadow Boxing elongated with antho" anyone?

September 9, 2012	#18
RobinB Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Near Reno, NV Posts: 1,621	I just wish I'd been told that they were not stable. I didn't CHOOSE to add three more "experimental" tomatoes to my lineup. Yes, as I mentioned in my earlier entry, it is kind of fun to grow things and not know what you're going to get, but I would have liked to have been able to choose whether or not I did. It just seems a very strange way to breed tomatoes. You sell unstable seeds for $5 per pack and you don't tell people that fact, and then we are left entirely on our own.... I can't help comparing this to the Dwarf Tomato Project, which I willingly signed up to do. It is ORGANIZED. We are not kept in the dark... we know what the two parents of each new line are, we can see what other gardeners are getting, and we can post results and photos. I feel like I'm a PART of something. We then send back seeds to a central place (thank you Craig!) at the end of the season. I just think that if I was breeding tomatoes, I would want more control over things. Now, as Mark points out, there will be many different versions of each floating around there... and with multiple names? It sounds like a nightmare.

September 9, 2012	#19
delltraveller Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Iowa Posts: 481	Tom's goals and the Dwarf Tomato Project's goals are different, RobinB. Part of Tom's goal is more about getting genes out there in the world for everyone to use, keeping the genetic diversity alive and working in collaboration, sort of like open source computer programs. So, yes, a lot of what you get to do with his seeds is participate in the adventure. And that can be disappointing if that wasn't what you were hoping and planning for. And if you aren't familiar with Tom and how he works, you can be surprised in a not good way. And it can make a person feel a bit grumpy, doggone it! My Russian Cossack looks a bit silly in it's location. I was expecting something in the pink to black range and medium size-ish. So there it sits, all little and red and dashed gold, in a comparison row of pink-black beefsteak-ish tomatoes, like the Sesame Street song proclaimed, " One of these things is not like the others..." Drop me a PM, RobinB, if you'd like some seeds from some of the stable varieties that Tom developed for commercial release---Green Zebra, Banana Cream/Cream Sausage, Green Sleeves/Green Sausage, Summer Cider---or a few seeds for Bing Cherry, which seems pretty stable.

September 10, 2012	#23
Boutique Tomatoes Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Northeast Wisconsin, Zone 5a Posts: 1,109	Yes, I see blue shading and stripes on a bigger tomato than any of the blue varieties I grew this year, so I'm jealous as well... I'm saying a little prayer that when you get one without BER it tastes amazing...

September 23, 2012	#27
Boutique Tomatoes Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Northeast Wisconsin, Zone 5a Posts: 1,109	Tom's hopes are that interesting segregations are sent back to him for possible use/grow out but I believe the answer usually given is that once a grower has taken a line out several generations and stabilized it they can name it while giving attribution to the original breeder. I believe Vintage Wine came out of Tom's early release of Brandystripe this way. I know Tom has been asking growers to send seed back as he didn't have a great tomato season this year, I'd send him a PM and find out if this is one he'd like back.

September 23, 2012	#29
maf Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: England Posts: 512	That is a very nice looking tomato, RobinB. I think it is inevitable that selections from Tom Wagner's lines will be renamed, otherwise there would be a hundred different 'Russian Cossacks' and a whole world of confusion from the people trying to grow the saved seeds. As long as the pedigree is noted as a selection from Tom Wagner's Russian Cossack line I believe the obligation of respect to the breeder is fulfilled. At the end of the day, the person who bought the seeds is the new owner of them and is in a position to do with the growouts whatever they want, including naming selections from unstable lines. Personally I would always share the seeds back with Tom Wagner if I received some feedback from him that the tomato in question was a selection he was interested in.

September 24, 2012	#30
RobinB Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Near Reno, NV Posts: 1,621	Yes, delltraveller, it does remind me of Pink BTD, but it is a brighter pink. My Pink BTDs this year have gotten quite dark when they are completely ripe. You sound like you might be familiar with Russian Cossack or its lineage... are you? Do tell! I will save as much seed from this tomato as I can. The weather should give me enough time, the birds I can't control. Mark, thanks for offering to PM Tom Wagner. I don't know him at all! I will, of course send him whatever seed I can, if he says he is interested. Keep me posted! Let's see how many tomatoes actually ripen, and I'll be happy to share seed with others if I end up with enough. Robin