Black and Red Boar tomato mystery

[feraltomatoes]

Been a while since I posted here. My online time is usually limited and done by my phone which makes it tough. I struggle with large fingers small button syndrome.
I don't remember if you sent me those seeds Ted.?
I have tried to put more thought into this, went back and checked hundreds of hand scribbled seed packages from from years past. I have come to the conclusion that Black and Brown Boar is likely the same as Black and Red Boar. Here is what I have, remember my brain is crammed with thousands of tomato variants, I have had a lot of sun exposure and I struggled to be a C student in high school.
Black and Brown Boar came from a single variant plant from a 100 plant row of Green Zebra, this was about 12 years ago. I grew 100 plants the next year and all turned out the same, dark striped fruit.
The next season I grew 200 plants from the F-3. All where again the same, except one very large dark brown striped specimen(this went on to create Large Barred Boar). The picture from green_go looks like a Large Barred Boar.
That same year I gave plants of the F-3's to several friends. One friend had a plant with fruit about 30% smaller fruit then the average Black and Brown, it also had more of a red appearance and had an extra complex flavor. I saved seeds from a few fruits thinking it may be a variant. My thought is that the difference was climatic and not genetic. He was in a hotter, drier climate and was very stingy with the water. The next season I did grow a small amount of plants from the smaller, redder fruit but do not remember seeing much difference from the Black and Brown so I did save some seeds, marked it Black and Red Boar and dropped the ball on that one as other varieties got my attention at the time.
Trying to remember whom I originally sent the alleged Black and Red Boar seeds to, could not have been more then a couple people.
My seed stock from Black and Brown Boar is now F-12 or F-13. I grew hundreds of plants last year alone and saw no variance although it has been a major donor to many great intentional crosses lately.

Hope this helps,
Brad Gates-Wild Boar Farms

[ContainerTed]

Brad, My original question was to you here at Tomatoville. I asked if the two were the same or were they different. I mailed about 100 seeds to you on July 27. 2009. They went to your Utah St address You had sent me your address thru a PM here at Tville just before that. You had indicated you wanted to do some comparisons. You stated Black & Red Boar was one of your older ones, that the two were different, and you wanted some seed to use to compare them. If they were the same, then why would you have me send seeds??

I know you are a busy person, but I did document this as I went. If your memory is unclear, then I offer my apologies for noting the differences in how we remember the event.

Ted

[feraltomatoes]

Sorry Ted, looked twice in my seed stash and must have misplaced them. I kept very little notes at that time I sent out Black and Red, digging through some seed packets sparked some memories. I am sure I had intentions to plant the seeds you sent but dropped the ball.
Can I send you some Black and Brown Boar seeds for you to compare?

[ContainerTed]

Thanks, Brad, but I already have some and have planned to grow both side by side to do that exact comparison. I'll make sure to let you know what I come up with.

I think my only regret in this situation is that a lot of folks have been growing Black & Red Boar for the last three or four seasons. The Niagara Tomatofest folks had it in their tasting in 2009. And I've sent out seeds to a bunch of folks on three different continents. I've also listed it at SSE last year and again this year.

Well, with all that said, the main thing is to correct any mistakes and get it right. If they are the same, then we need to do what we can to help the rest of the tomato growing folks understand.

Please know that I harbor no hard feelings or anything. It was just such a surprise. Again, I'll be growing both this year and will make sure I get the results to you.

[Wi-sunflower]

I also have both. I think I got B&B from your web site and B&R in a trade.

While I've grown them both several times, I haven't made an effort to compare them. I'll try to grow them side by side this coming year and see what I get.

Carol

This has turned into a very interesting thread.

[spacetogrow]

So, Ted, I wasn't clear about your post above. Did you mean that, if we got seeds for Black & Red, we should count them the same as Black & Brown? Or that we should mark them as being about the same as B&B? It sounds like the B&R still will grow into good tomatoes.

Thank you both, Ted and Brad, for sharing.

[ContainerTed]

Originally Posted by spacetogrow

So, Ted, I wasn't clear about your post above. Did you mean that, if we got seeds for Black & Red, we should count them the same as Black & Brown? Or that we should mark them as being about the same as B&B? It sounds like the B&R still will grow into good tomatoes.

Thank you both, Ted and Brad, for sharing.

Brad, please correct me if I'm wrong.

What it means is that Brad "thinks" that Black & Brown Boar is really Black & Red Boar "renamed". However, he doesn't seem to be "absolutely" positive. So, the best way is to grow out both side by side in the same garden and see if any significant differences show up.

My advice would be to keep them separate until this comparison is complete. The decision is (and always has been) up to Brad.

[ddsack]

My Black and Red Boar's had slightly elongated bottoms like they were trying to get to a heart stage, instead of the round bottoms I see in other pictures. Did anyone else see this in their B&R's ?

If the original version was listed on SSE and passed around for a few years, it's possible that it might have changed a bit, so that it's no longer the same as the true line that Brad calls Black and Brown at present.

[green_go]

ddsack, my Black and Red Boar tomatoes are different – they are rather flattened beefsteaks (more wide than tall) and many grow quite big, though the majority is of average size.

[ContainerTed]

Here's what mine looked like with the first crop (first 3 pixs) and again two years later (last 2 pixs).

My Black & Brown Boar were heart saladettes. I've got pictures but Photobucket is rebelling against me right now.

[maf]

Originally Posted by ddsack

My Black and Red Boar's had slightly elongated bottoms like they were trying to get to a heart stage, instead of the round bottoms I see in other pictures. Did anyone else see this in their B&R's ?

This sounds like the shape I saw in my Black and Brown Boar plants (seeds from WBF), not a heart by any means but not completely round either. This is not a very good picture, but two groups of Black and Brown Boar can be seen at 5 o'clock and 9 o'clock.
Medley.jpg

Black and Brown Boar 1.jpg

[ddsack]

Maf, those shapes are what I was seeing. And then I remembered this thread from earlier this summer when Mudman was getting shapes that were even more pointed. http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...ck+boar+hearts

[feraltomatoes]

I agree Ted. Let's see what results we get in from this years grow outs. I will be planting seeds from the first Black and Red. The seed pack is marked 2002.
It appears from what others have seen that Black and Red has some variations. I would assume it was a variant or unstable cross at that time and many different selections have been made by many people over several years so it could be interesting.

I agree that this causes confusion and my excuse is that this was something I did back when I was a bit of a green tomato.
I try to be more careful now.