Orange Minsk vs. Orange Minsk Heart

For me, Orange Minsk always produces tomatoes in a variety of shapes including blunt hearts. I rarely see a tomato with a normal beefsteak shape on the Orange Minsk plants. If they didn't taste so good, I would probably stop growing them because they are quite often ugly in shape.

Even the photo for the variety on Gleckler Seedmen web page doesn't show two tomatoes with the same shape. Click on the photo to enlarge it.

http://www.glecklerseedmen.com/Orang...87_506819.aspx

Ted

[Cole_Robbie]

I grew orange minsk for the first time this year, and I did not like it at all. Orange Blossom F1 set about 5-6 times as much fruit, and I could not taste any difference.

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

I grew orange minsk for the first time this year, and I did not like it at all. Orange Blossom F1 set about 5-6 times as much fruit, and I could not taste any difference.

Yes, for me it is sometimes a low producer; but some years, it is a heavy producer. This year it was a heavy producer. KBX was growing right beside Orange Minsk. It is always a heavy producer. This year, it didn't produce a single tomato on a beautiful plant. Gardening for me seems to be more of a gambling game than a growing food game. You never really know how the dice will roll.

Ted

[Tania]

Did anybody grow both Orange Minsk and Orange Minsk Heart side-by-side?

I see from different posts in different forums folks say their Orange Minsk only produced beefsteaks, and other folks say their Orange Minsk plants always produce variable shapes. Then I see statements that Orange Minsk Heart plants produce only blunt hearts.

Andrey says the original fruit he saved seeds from and named Orange Minsk was a blunt heart.

So, I am still a confused about the Orange Minsk variants.

bugdaddy observed the two distinct shapes on the SAME plant, and saved seeds from the heart-shaped fruits. Was it a shape variation, or it is a mutation?

I am curious to know how the two compare grown side-by-side. I will do it in 2014.

Tatiana

[KarenO]

I did Tania.

Definitely different plants. The orange Minsk was a very large and rangy regular leaf indeterminate plant that produced a pretty good number of irregular sized: 3-16 oz on the same plant but definitely all beefsteak shaped (most a bit lumpy and flattened some catfaceing ) dark orange meaty tomatoes. Really delicious smooth tangy sweet flavor. The orange Minsk heart was not as big of a plant also regular leaf and a little more viney produced fewer tomatoes than the regular OM for me but definite and consistent heart shaped (smoothly rounded pointed blossom ends) tomatoes more consistent in size about 8 oz and every tomato on the plant heart shaped. same taste as OM maybe fewer seeds. I saved seed from both.
KarenO

[Tania]

Originally Posted by KarenO

I did Tania.

Definitely different plants. The orange Minsk was a very large and rangy regular leaf indeterminate plant that produced a pretty good number of irregular sized: 3-16 oz on the same plant but definitely all beefsteak shaped (most a bit lumpy and flattened some catfaceing ) dark orange meaty tomatoes. Really delicious smooth tangy sweet flavor. The orange Minsk heart was not as big of a plant also regular leaf and a little more viney produced fewer tomatoes than the regular OM for me but definite and consistent heart shaped (smoothly rounded pointed blossom ends) tomatoes more consistent in size about 8 oz and every tomato on the plant heart shaped. same taste as OM maybe fewer seeds. I saved seed from both.
KarenO

Thank you Karen! That is so helpful

What was your seed source for both of them?

[KarenO]

I received seed for both from Carolyn in her spring seed offer this year. the OMH seed was labelled from 2012 and the OM seed was from earlier, 2008 I believe.
I'd be happy to send you seed I saved from either if you want it.
KO

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Tania

Did anybody grow both Orange Minsk and Orange Minsk Heart side-by-side?

I see from different posts in different forums folks say their Orange Minsk only produced beefsteaks, and other folks say their Orange Minsk plants always produce variable shapes. Then I see statements that Orange Minsk Heart plants produce only blunt hearts.

Andrey says the original fruit he saved seeds from and named Orange Minsk was a blunt heart.

So, I am still a confused about the Orange Minsk variants.

bugdaddy observed the two distinct shapes on the SAME plant, and saved seeds from the heart-shaped fruits. Was it a shape variation, or it is a mutation?

I am curious to know how the two compare grown side-by-side. I will do it in 2014.

Tatiana

Yes Tania. I have grown both in the same season, OM from Andrey, my saved seeds and the heart from one of the packs that Jim ( bigdaddy) sent me, seeds sent down to Craig and plants for both, along with many others sent up from NC to me.

Surprise. I got beefsteaks with OM, and always did, and got ALL blunt hearts from the heart ones. I didn't have enough seeds to list or send anywhere that first time, so let one of the persons who does seed production for me do the heart one the next year, and I think it was Shoe, and he got all blunt hearts as well.

So that's my story amd I'm sticking to it.

When there are two different shapes on a single plant how does one explain that? If it were a mutation it would have to be a somatic mutation rather than a seed DNA mutation and somatic mutations are rare indeed and I couldn't see several somatic mutations occuring on a single plant to explain the hearts. But see below.

Is it environmental? High sustained heat has been said to cause a pseudo heart and that depends on what stage of ripness a fruit is at when that weather effect is expressed.If so, and I've seen that with known nonhearts. Then another possible reason related to weather and exactly WHEN that influences shape takes place inindividual ripenng fruits could explain variable results from different folks as when there was or was not high sustained heat.But if that were THE explanation, then one would not expect to find some folks growing the hearts, in different locations and seasons, giving hearts.

I SSE listed the heart for the 2013 Yearbook and offered it here in my 2013 seed offer.

Prue is a variety that has variably sized fruits and shapes on a plant, but I haven't seen anyone working with that situation.

I don't know the details of the Cherokee Purple heart, nor do I know the details of Brad's Black Heart, which is also a blunt heart and I've grown it, as to whether all fruits on a plant were hearts or there were different shaped ones and seeds saved just from some heart ones.

I know I'm not giving you a satisfactory answer, just possibilities, but it seems to me if it grew as a heart for Jim, from saved seeds, and then did the same for me, then did the same for Shoe when he did seed production, I have to think it's probably genetic in origin.

And would have to be due to individual somatic mutations for the heart shaped ones on the same plant. Whether that's possible, or whether it's environmental weather, that could also be possible b'c there is known to be an effect on fruit shape that's weather influenced, which I mentioned above.

Maybe a bit of both?

Carolyn

[dinca]

Tania asked, "Did anybody grow both Orange Minsk and Orange Minsk Heart side-by-side?"

I am another who did using seeds from Carolyn's 2013 offer. Briefly my experience with Orange Minsk Heart was that it wasn't much of a heart. In my view it was a round tomato. I found it bigger and somewhat more productive than Orange Minsk.

I reported my results here: (scroll down to post #7). Check out the photos - there are two side views of Orange Minsk Heart (of different fruit), one top view and one from the bottom (I've not seen a belly button like this on a heart before). There is also a real heart among them.

I know this won't settle anything, but it's what I saw.

I saved seeds from both and will grow both again in 2014.

[Tania]

Thank you folks!

Karen, thank you for the seeds offer, it is very kind of you! But I am OK, as I have seeds for Orange Minsk from 3 different sources (including Andrey) and Orange Minsk Heart seeds from Carolyn's 2013 seed offer, so this should be more than sufficient for the side-by-side growouts, and I intend to have all my seed sources planted and compared too.

Carolyn, thank you so much for pointing out possibilities! It does look like it is genetic. But I am thinking about possible instability of the original Orange Minsk seeds (as Andrey said it was originally a blunt heart)

[dustdevil]

As Carolyn stated above, high sustained heat can cause a pseudo heart. Only a small percentage of varieties have this ability to change shape...it must be genetic. A tomato would have to hold the heart shape for 5-6 generations to be truly a heart.

I was thinking more about this. Maybe it's time for a new tomato category..."shape shifter"...