Hand, open pollination?

[Doug9345]

It's not just ignorance that causes it. It's marketing gone awry. Heirloom tomatoes are more sellable than other tomatoes, so all of a sudden a bunch of OP tomatoes have become Heirlooms. Since the general public have no real idea what hybrid, open pollinated and heirloom means it increases sales and blends the words together.

Did you get my PM?

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by CapnChkn

¡Que Bueno! That's what the original question is. I have Rutgers, I see people advertising their Rutgers as "heirloom." As I remember, Rutgers was developed for commercial use. There are people talking about saving their commercial seed, carrying the line, and "now" it's an heirloom!

I, a frustrated wordsmith, have all kinds of trouble with people mixing genre. Either out of laziness, or ignorance. I pass this wisdom on, and feel cheated when I find out it's totally wrong.

It is important to note that Rutgers was always OP. But it was a commercial OP. In fact at one time about 70% of total commercial tomato production in the USA was Rutgers back when commercial tomatoes still had flavor. That's a heck of a lot of tomatoes! Many regional strains were developed. Therefore for years it wasn't considered an heirloom. Once it was no longer grown commercially, a few of those strains were carried on. It is those that now over 20-30 years later are now considered heirlooms. But the original Rutgers is around 70 years old and is considered lost. We only have those later regional strains.

[CapnChkn]

so all of a sudden a bunch of OP tomatoes have become Heirlooms.

I remember when Windows 95 was the OS of choice for surfing the web. I would then go into stores and see things like "Windows 95 Internet Mouse." It had a button in the center.

I got the Rutgers seeds from somewhere. My Mother seemed to like them. I've put them out in the cold frame now, they're still alive, but look like they're suffering. The package didn't say "Heirloom," OP, or anything else. I don't even remember which seed company packaged them.

I'm working on these actual heirloom cultivars, hoping I get something like what a tomato is actually supposed to be. I notice Pineapple from Mexico is actually sweeter than the usual stuff, because I get it picked ripe. Pineapple from other operations are still half green and pineapple doesn't continue to ripen.

They have seeds too. Hawaii doesn't have the pollinators for Pineapple, one reason it's the place to grow them.

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by CapnChkn

I
I got the Rutgers seeds from somewhere. My Mother seemed to like them. I've put them out in the cold frame now, they're still alive, but look like they're suffering. The package didn't say "Heirloom," OP, or anything else. I don't even remember which seed company packaged them.

The place to get Rutgers if you don't need a particular strain is Dollar General. You can get a packet for 33 cents.

I'm working on these actual heirloom cultivars, hoping I get something like what a tomato is actually supposed to be. I notice Pineapple from Mexico is actually sweeter than the usual stuff, because I get it picked ripe. Pineapple from other operations are still half green and pineapple doesn't continue to ripen.

They have seeds too. Hawaii doesn't have the pollinators for Pineapple, one reason it's the place to grow them.

I had to read this twice to realize you were talking about real pineapple and not the tomato variety called Pineapple.

[Fred Hempel]

Frankly, the term "open pollinated" as used to describe heirloom tomatoes is a confusing one.

I think "self pollinated" is really a more appropriate description.

Open-pollinated always makes me think of cross pollination.

[dice]

Yeah, what is the "open" part?

As an informal rule of thumb, figure "50 years old, give or take
a decade, and open-pollenated" is a real "heirloom tomato". Many
came from very rural areas or "the old country" (or both), but
many others were once popular commercial varieties from before
seed companies began producing hybrid seed in commercial
quantities: Marglobe, Bonny Best, Earliana, June Pink, and Sioux
are some varieties like that.

[FreyaFL]

Just wanted to say that I'm finding this thread very informative!

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by dice

Yeah, what is the "open" part?

As a guess I'd say either open field pollinated or out-in-the-open pollinated. Think about a family growing one variety of something and letting it go to seed, then saving the seed.

[dice]

There is some genetic drift/confusion among the heirlooms, too.
I remember Carolyn137 and nctomatoman discussing getting
accessions that had been donated to the USDA seed banks and
not getting anything particularly close to the descriptions in old
seed catalogs when they grew them out. Here is an example,
the descriptions of June Pink from two growers at Dave's
Garden PlantFiles:
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/60058/

[WVTomatoMan]

I don't know if this will help clarify things or not, but I'll give it a try...

Open pollinated means that plants from saved seeds will come back true to type. Meaning that if no cross polination occurs the offspring will be the same as the parent. All heirlooms are open pollinated, but not all open pollinated varieties are heirlooms. What classifies as an heirloom? It depends upon who you talk to. Craig and Carolyn classified heirlooms into four categories: family heirlooms, commercial heirlooms, mystery heirlooms, and created heirlooms. As I recall the classifications were basically this:

1. Commercial Heirlooms: Open-pollinated varieties introduced before 1940.
2. Family Heirlooms: Seeds that have been passed down for several generations through a family.
3. Created Heirlooms: Crossing two known parents (either two heirlooms or an heirloom and a hybrid) and dehybridizing the resulting seeds for how ever many years/generations it takes to eliminate the undesirable characteristics and stabilize the desired characteristics, perhaps as many as 8 years or more.
4. Mystery Heirlooms: Varieties that are a product of natural cross-pollination of other heirloom varieties.

Other people say that any open pollinated tomato that is more than 50 years old is an heirloom.

When two open pollinated tomatoes are crossed, either intentionally or accidently, the result is an F1 hybrid. The fruit of the initial cross will be the same as any other tomato on the parent, it's the seeds that hold the genes. Those seeds are F1 seeds (F = filial and the one part means first offspring generation) and are just like commercial hybrids. All plants grown from F1 seeds will be the same, but after that (F2 - F?) there will be variations. Folks wishing to create a new variety will generally select what they're looking and try to stabalize it. After several generations of proper selection the newly created variety will come back true to type and will then be classified as open pollinated. Whether it then becomes an heirloom depends upon one's definition of heirloom.

Right now WV '63 is classified as an open pollinated variety. This is the 50th anniversary of it's introduction and release. Should it remain open pollinated or should it be an heirloom? I hope to start a thread about this to get opinions on what's it's classification should be.

I hope this helps. If you have any further questions please ask.


Randy

[Doug9345]

When you start another thread I'll put my full thoughts there, but for me the term heirloom should be reserved for those tomatoes that have been passed down between generations in a family.

[CapnChkn]

I looked pollination up in Wikipedia, and it had this to say about Open-Pollination:

Open pollination is pollination by insects, birds, wind, or other natural mechanisms, and contrasts with cleistogamy, closed pollination, which is one of the many types of self pollination. Open pollination also contrasts with controlled pollination, which is controlled so that all seeds of a crop are descended from parents with known traits, and are therefore more likely to have the desired traits.

Somehow I got a different meaning out of the USDA site, and now I can't find it.

WVTomatoman is true to the spirit of the original question, I was trying to sort out why it's so important to leave the flowers open to the vectors usually in effect when flowers are at work. I know how much more effective taking pollen and moving it mechanically from one flower to another is.

The only problem with the terminology I can see is, mechanically moving the pollen is more likely to favor one particular pollen source rather than a mix of different donors. That could be worked around by choosing 25 or more donors to pollinate from.

So.... While trying to sort this paradox, I discover more than one definition of the same term. Although I do see at http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/AFSIC_...om/srb9805.htm:

10. Watson, Benjamin, ed. Taylor's Guide to Heirloom Vegetables. Boston, MA: Houghton Mifflin, 1996. 343 p. NAL SB324.73.T38 1996

A recent addition to Taylor's Guide series, this book presents information on more than 500 varieties of the "best historic, regional, and ethnic vegetables." Heirlooms are defined as open-pollinated varieties that reproduce true-to-type, were introduced over 50 years ago, and possess a history that is more-or-less well documented.

This is just like the wild west! The law is so loosely interpreted, contrary to what Bonanza would have you believe!

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by CapnChkn

I looked pollination up in Wikipedia, and it had this to say about Open-Pollination:

Open pollination is pollination by insects, birds, wind, or other natural mechanisms, and contrasts with cleistogamy, closed pollination, which is one of the many types of self pollination. Open pollination also contrasts with controlled pollination, which is controlled so that all seeds of a crop are descended from parents with known traits, and are therefore more likely to have the desired traits.

That is not in conflict with how open pollinated varieties are done.
Tomatoes self pollinate to a great extent so you can grow multiple varieties at relatively close distances without a lot of crossing. Beans are even more so,
peppers less so, and squash not at all. If I'm raising squash for a lot seed I'm going to grow one variety per location and let the bees do their thing.

I was trying to sort out why it's so important to leave the flowers open to the vectors usually in effect when flowers are at work. I know how much more effective taking pollen and moving it mechanically from one flower to another is.

It depends on the species. Tomatoes will pollinate with a little movement and maybe some vibration. I have a Silvery Fir Tree in the window sill with two tomatoes on it. All I did to pollinate it was to take it off the window sill and look at it every day when it's flowers were open.

Beans self Pollinate before the flower even opens. Squash on the other hand need some kind of vector to care pollen from a male flower to a female flower, either an insect or you. It also depend on scale. I can hand pollinate a few squash, but if I have 25 acres of them, there is no way I could.

The only problem with the terminology I can see is, mechanically moving the pollen is more likely to favor one particular pollen source rather than a mix of different donors. That could be worked around by choosing 25 or more donors to pollinate from.

.

That is done with things like corn which suffer decline if you have too small a breeding group. On the other hand true breeding open pollinated plants are theoretically genetically identical.

So.... While trying to sort this paradox, I discover more than one definition of the same term. Although I do see at http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/AFSIC_...om/srb9805.htm:

10. Watson, Benjamin, ed. Taylor's Guide to Heirloom Vegetables. Boston, MA: Houghton Mifflin, 1996. 343 p. NAL SB324.73.T38 1996

A recent addition to Taylor's Guide series, this book presents information on more than 500 varieties of the "best historic, regional, and ethnic vegetables." Heirlooms are defined as open-pollinated varieties that reproduce true-to-type, were introduced over 50 years ago, and possess a history that is more-or-less well documented.

This is just like the wild west! The law is so loosely interpreted, contrary to what Bonanza would have you believe!

As far as I know there is no legal definition of heirloom.

[dice]

With multiple different cultivars in a garden or field, bees "stir
the mix", so to speak. A bee cross-pollenates a flower with
pollen from a different plant, the seeds from that fruit are
saved in with seeds of "the real thing".

Someone sells or trades those seeds to someone else that
has never grown that cultivar before. When they grow it out,
they happen to get a seedling from the crossed seed. If they
are growing a row from that packet, maybe they notice that
"this one is different." If they are growing one plant, maybe
not. The fruit color is right, maybe the leaf type is right, days
to maturity is only an estimate anyway that varies with the
weather, light exposure of the garden spot, etc, and so they
do not know that what they are growing is a hybrid plant rather
than the open-pollenated variety that they thought they received
seeds for.

That person saves seeds, trades them, etc, without the name ever
changing. Twenty years later, it is no longer what it once was, because
the crosses "with something else" keep circulating with the same name,
etc. The crosses eventually stabilize, and you have people growing
20 different kinds of Rutgers and not knowing who has the real
original anymore. (Maybe Rutgers U, if they saved seed stock of the
original parents in a long-term storage seed bank and can recreate
it.) They are probably at least all mid-sized round or slightly oblate reds,
because if that changed knowledgeable growers would know it cannot
be Rutgers.

So, you plant your seeds and you take your chances. With any luck,
you will at least get something worth eating, even it it is not quite the
"June Pink" of 50 years ago or whatever. And sometimes you get
something spectacularly better tasting or more productive than
the original.

[Stvrob]

Now you got me worried about saving seed. Maybe I have become part of the problem? I don't have much space between varieties, and I just assume that tomatoes are self pollinating and dont consider that the bees are in there mucking everything up occasionally.
Are there any special efforts we ought to do, other than rolling the dice, to make certain that a handful of tomatoes have definitely been self pollinated? maybe an electric toothbrush on the flower and a little mark of paint or something to identify the fruit from which seed should be saved?