WV '63 status OP or heirloom?

[Deborah]

I just turned 60, and I am now a hybrid, antique, new heirloom for this year ! And gosh darnoodleyed good lookin', might I add !

[Deborah]

But not terribly stable... sometimes...

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by Father'sDaughter

Yes, but that 50 year heirloom definition would only apply to those of us who are stabilized...

That most likely means that none of us here on a regular basis are heirlooms. Any group that thinks that growing a hundred varieties is "normal" isn't stable.

[Alfredo]

Originally Posted by Father'sDaughter

Yes, but that 50 year heirloom definition would only apply to those of us who are stabilized...

...wow

[Doug9345]

I think part of the problem is that we are taking 6 distinct categories and trying to map them in to 3 terms.

We have
1)Hybrids
2)Recently created OP varieties
3)Old commercial OP varieties
4)Old created OP varieties
5)Varieties passed down in families
6)Varieties that the history is unknown.

We map them into
Hybrids
Open Pollinated, not Heirlooms
Open Pollinated, Heirlooms

Almost everyone agrees that Hybrids belong in hybrids, recently created OPs in the non heirloom OP and Family Heirlooms into heirlooms. The problem then is what to do with the other three categories. We try categorize them by date or age or poll, there are many views on which of the three that go where.

This is compounded by the fact that there is economic reasons to group varieties either into Hybrids or Heirlooms.This leads to pushing varieties into one or the other category even if it doesn't belong. Some sellers don't know, some are confused, some don't care and some are just plain liars.

If I was doing a seed catalog I'd just give the history if it was know and if it wasn't I just promote how good the tomato was.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Doug9345

I think part of the problem is that we are taking 6 distinct categories and trying to map them in to 3 terms.

We have
1)Hybrids
2)Recently created OP varieties
3)Old commercial OP varieties
4)Old created OP varieties
5)Varieties passed down in families
6)Varieties that the history is unknown.

We map them into
Hybrids
Open Pollinated, not Heirlooms
Open Pollinated, Heirlooms

Almost everyone agrees that Hybrids belong in hybrids, recently created OPs in the non heirloom OP and Family Heirlooms into heirlooms. The problem then is what to do with the other three categories. We try categorize them by date or age or poll, there are many views on which of the three that go where.

This is compounded by the fact that there is economic reasons to group varieties either into Hybrids or Heirlooms.This leads to pushing varieties into one or the other category even if it doesn't belong. Some sellers don't know, some are confused, some don't care and some are just plain liars.

If I was doing a seed catalog I'd just give the history if it was know and if it wasn't I just promote how good the tomato was.

Randy, it's much more complicated than what you have above. For instance, if someone does a direct cross and one or both of the parnts are known heirloom varieties, does that make the stabilized variety an heirloom.

Tom Wagner has bred many varieties and none of them are heirlooms IMO but he insists they are b'c they are treasured.

Much more to say but it's near my bedtime and I'm tired, will be back to explain more.

Lastly, I agree that there are some seed sites which give little to no consideration of what an heirloom might be and lots of wrong info is passed around in that regard. Whether it's just lack of knowledge or an attempt to make more seed sales if avariety is dubbed an heirloom, I can't always be sure, but definitely have my suspicions when it comes to certain seed vendors.

Carolyn

[WVTomatoMan]

Carolyn,

WV '63 is treasured by West Virginians so it should be an heirloom. Anything West Virginia is treasured by West Virginians. It's this bond thing that's hard to explain. I'm kidding about the treasured part, but serious about the West Virginia part.

Yep, seed sites are especially guilty of adding to the confusion. For many of them their main focus is selling their product not maintaining terminology integrity.

Isn't it a bit of a sliding scale? Say a family in the 1920s starts passing down their treasured tomato. At some point it becomes an heirloom. Say a family in the 1950s starts passing down their treasured tomato. After just as many generations as the 1920s family the 1950s family tomato should then become an heirloom too.


Randy

[peppero]

if going by the pre 1940 standard that qualifies me as an heirloom.

jon

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by WVTomatoMan

Carolyn,

WV '63 is treasured by West Virginians so it should be an heirloom. Anything West Virginia is treasured by West Virginians. It's this bond thing that's hard to explain. I'm kidding about the treasured part, but serious about the West Virginia part.

Yep, seed sites are especially guilty of adding to the confusion. For many of them their main focus is selling their product not maintaining terminology integrity.

Isn't it a bit of a sliding scale? Say a family in the 1920s starts passing down their treasured tomato. At some point it becomes an heirloom. Say a family in the 1950s starts passing down their treasured tomato. After just as many generations as the 1920s family the 1950s family tomato should then become an heirloom too.


Randy

Randy, if you hold to the 50 year guideline, the moving target one then what you said is correct for you. I'm one of many who holds to the pre-1940 one b'c at that point hybrid varieties were being introduced.

And if you believe that something treasured is a criterion for heirloom status, that's Ok for you.

But I and many others never use it as first suggested by Tom Wagner to help justify that all the ones he bred were heirlooms.

Heck. I could list some recent varieties that I treasure as well, but they sure aren't heirlooms yet, and I won't be alive to see them being called heirlooms if the 50 yr moving target one applies.

Carolyn

[WVTomatoMan]

I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time to express their opinions.

Thanks,
Randy

[Tormato]

Can-o-worms time again, and I don't mind opening the can.

What if you have no idea how old a tomato "variety" is? I'll go no further than Seek-No-Further Love Apple. Maybe it'll be identified as a very old variety, and maybe not. And, maybe it won't be identified at all.

Dr. Lve Apple

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by WVTomatoMan

I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time to express their opinions.

Thanks,
Randy

Even when some of us disagreed with you?

Carolyn

[Sun City Linda]

Speaking for myself only, I prefer oldie but goodie.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Tormato

Can-o-worms time again, and I don't mind opening the can.

What if you have no idea how old a tomato "variety" is? I'll go no further than Seek-No-Further Love Apple. Maybe it'll be identified as a very old variety, and maybe not. And, maybe it won't be identified at all.

Dr. Lve Apple

Gary, I've posted this before, that I've been told it was strain of Missouri Love Apple that was the best the person grew and that's why the.....Seek No Further.... was added.

I haven't researched Missouri Love Apple but perhaps something is said at Tania's site as to when it first appeared.

For many varieties it will be never known when they first appeared, that's a given, but I read the histories as given in the SSE Yearbooks, and have all of them going back to 1975 when SSE first started, except for the 1982 one, although I first joined SSE in 1989.Do I believe EVERY history written there? Nope, there are some doozies, but in geneeral it's easy to spot them.

I just opened up my 2002 YEarbook b'c
it was on top of the one pile, and what I read is:

...said to be grown in Civil War era by Grandpa Barnes as ornamentals b/c he didn't believe that tomatoes should be eaten, grown by the Jennings family for the past 150 years.

And it's listed as Missouri Pink Love Apple and that's the way I've seen it listed for years.

Carolyn

[paulgrow]

I say OP