Magic Trick?

[travis]

Jennifer, I live in a state of constant low boil

[Simone]

Puh,
i found it... I mean the pic from 2012.
This is my personal Magic Trick.

It was yellow, with a thick skin (great keeper, was my last tomato in January 2013; picked it green at the end of October).
Can you see it? The plant survived the russet mites!



Have taken a look at my best Magic Trick plant and yes: this one will have stripes. The seeds from this plant was taken from my plant from 2012.

Simone

[carolyn137]

Tom, the take home lesson from your long post is that you named it knowing it was not geneticallystable.

When one thinks of a tomato variety, yes, a tomato variety,not variety in the larger sense of spice of life or whatever,one thinksof a genetically stable variety that has then been given a name.

You aren't the only one selling seeds for unstable varieties, that we know, but at least you're here at Tville to give advice to those asking questions about many of them.

Lastly, lets say that we've seen that some here are getting different phenotys for Magic Trick, they make selections, grow them out to genetic stabiity, and they no longer can call it Magic Trick, b'c it isn't.

My point being does it bother you at all that from one unstable variety there could be many genetically stable varieties, and for sure they couldn't be called Magic Trick but could have all different kinds of names?

Carolyn

[ChilliJez]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Tom, the take home lesson from your long post is that you named it knowing it was not geneticallystable.

When one thinks of a tomato variety, yes, a tomato variety,not variety in the larger sense of spice of life or whatever,one thinksof a genetically stable variety that has then been given a name.

You aren't the only one selling seeds for unstable varieties, that we know, but at least you're here at Tville to give advice to those asking questions about many of them.

Lastly, lets say that we've seen that some here are getting different phenotys for Magic Trick, they make selections, grow them out to genetic stabiity, and they no longer can call it Magic Trick, b'c it isn't.

My point being does it bother you at all that from one unstable variety there could be many genetically stable varieties, and for sure they couldn't be called Magic Trick but could have all different kinds of names?

Carolyn

At least the stable offspring will be readily identifiable. They'll have names like "Pick a card, any card", "Saw my assistant in half", "Dove under my hat" and so on.

[jennifer28]

I think the name "magic trick" came from the idea that it is a magic trick that the tomato plants survive and produce fruit long after other plants have died off. I like the name because my students are quite young, and it makes them more interested in the tomato.

[ChilliJez]

Originally Posted by jennifer28

I think the name "magic trick" came from the idea that it is a magic trick that the tomato plants survive and produce fruit long after other plants have died off. I like the name because my students are quite young, and it makes them more interested in the tomato.

Jennifer, my suggestions were flippant and perhaps inappropriate. I apologise.

I think Carolyn's point is that, named whilst genetically unstable, some iterations will perform as the magic trick you describe and some will not. And you start to wonder if you're buying magic trick that works or not. In order to differentiate their seed from others, vendors start to use names like Magic Trick Welsh Striped 2, or Magic Trick German 2012 selection, or Magic Trick Wagner's Choice.

I'm happy that the name is working for you with your students, but I can appreciate that it may not be the best thing for a potentially great tomato to acquire a name before it's time.

[jennifer28]

I don't need you to interpret what Carolyn wrote. My reading comprehension skills are decent enough that I get her point. I'm putting you on ignore now.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by jennifer28

I don't need you to interpret what Carolyn wrote. My reading comprehension skills are decent enough that I get her point. I'm putting you on ignore now.

Jennifer,I'm sure you did comprehend what I wrote but your post was addessing a completely different aspect/

Can't we be friends here?

There are quite a few folks who have upset me and will be in the future, not just here but at the several places where I do read and often post.

But not once have I ever put anyone on ignore.EVER.

Life is too short for that as I learned yet again when I almost died the night of May 30th, 2013 as you know from the thread that Mischka put up about that.

Carolyn

[jennifer28]

You're right. Life is too short, and yes when you almost die it does put things in perspective. I'll un-ignore. I find it commendable that you have never put anyone on ignore, I do it a lot but I've never announced it before. And your point and ChilliJez comments are important but you are also right in that I am concerned with finding tomatoes that are resistant to late blight... And early blight for that matter. My reasons for this are to feed more people, but that is another matter entirely

[Tom Wagner]

I am tempted to go off topic...but I'll reserve my comments to a new topic posting not to detract from the merits of MAGIC TRICK.

I wanted to get tomato seed out to the public to meet the demands of the tomato growers, enthusiasts, collectors, seed savers, and even other breeders to allow fully homozygous LB resistant lines to find the light of day. Late Blight resistance is the Holy Grail around here. But try to get publicity locally to promote these kinds of tomatoes....you can't. One would think folks and businesses would be knocking on your door....you would think county cooperative members...university doctorates...anybody would say, "How can we help you get those resistant tomatoes out to the local growers?" It just doesn't happen. I don't have the infrastructure to perform my work efficiently...no property to call my own, no greenhouse of my own, live in a condo, and basically beg for space to finish out my limited amount of plants, tubers, and seeds.

Selling the seeds via the internet is what I have been doing the last three seasons. I thought I would never do that again since the money was not there with my Tater Mater Seed catalog back in 1983/1986. You would think this is a great money maker...but it is not...I make more money sub teaching than selling seeds even though I have two websites to sell seed.

I introduce new varieties of seed from the two companies established as limited liability corporations. No money for infrastructure and nothing plowed back in. If I can get some new tomato clones out to the public as a free breeder and/or an open source breeder...so be it. If the emphasis is on very new "varieties" that are still leveling out with some recombination beyond the obvious traits promoted, what problem is that to the average reader?

I would hope that buyers of my seed would send back selections of F-3, F-4, whatever to me with descriptions of why they like a special plant. As a vendor/breeder, I should have the first say as to what gets re-listed, and maybe I could have sub groups within a variety called Magic Trick.

Books are sold with essentially two names. Maybe I could publish a book called "100 Magic Trick Tomatoes for the American Garden - Which to Choose?"
I could maintain hundreds of sub groups and not be embarrassed at all to offer each and every one. However, I could decide to offer only one selection..maybe all from a single plant to accommodate the least amount of variability. I could sell the book with all 100 tomato seeds in a special tear out page(s).

But I notice over and over that other vendors sell my selections without a hint of a request to do so. Why is it that the Breeder/Vendor is left in the lurch? The remarkable thing about the so-called unstable lines I offer and sell ...my competition has no compunction not to sell the seed under my naming convention.

If I don't offer seed early...it may never get out there....no one has the resources and time to bring hundreds of tomato varieties to the fray only as fully non-variable OP Lines. I rather relish the fact that many hundreds of customers want to buy new prototypes of tomatoes found no where else. I have found a niche for doing the opposite of what some folks consider proper....my specialty is actually growing to promote F-2 seed almost above all else.

I especially like that my customers are finding new types out of the Magic Trick tomato seed. Yellows that keep for Simone, striped reds that do well for Jennifer, and more that the readers don't hear about because they can't read the many letters, emails, customer comments, etc., that I receive. I am doing more to create varietal diversity than most.

Today I used a plant for breeding that I picked up from a friend of mine...she bought the seed from some other vendor that sells my Woolly Blue Jay....do you know who that might be? Doesn't matter...my so-called varieties are part of the landscape now. It is probably an F-5 plant and I used the pollen of it to cross to
Brandywine
Yukon Quest
Leningradski Skoro (sp?)
Fahrenheit Blues
Shadow Boxing
F-2 of (Blue Bully x Green Brandy)
Helsing ★★★★★★★★ Blue
Islandaise
six others I can't remember off hand.

The point is ....I completed 594 combination crosses to date...in less than a full month. I intend to offer some as F-1 Hybrids. Some after they are grown out in Hawaii as F-2, and later F-3, F-4, etc., as I see fit. I have no authority that says I can't do this.

I have legions of folks who want to be part of a variety creation program. They don't feel the need to do the actual breeding but want to play a part of the adventures of selecting their 'adaptive' strain.

Names are part of the prototype development. No one likes to grow a number like 322811 thus; Magic Trick.

Tom Wagner

[zenthumbs]

Regardless, it's a beautiful tomato!

[carolyn137]

I hear you Tom, I really do.

Where I would quibble a bit is that I would not use the word resistant when referring to LB and the ph2 and ph3 genes. As you know there already are many hybrids out there with those two genes, many developed by Randy Gardner, and some others.

And I think it's better to use the word tolerance rather than resistantance which to most means total resistance, which just doesn 't exist. And that comment based on feedback I've read here and there

I know you aren't making lots of money, few who do breeding do so. I think what it comes down to is the personal challenges that any breeder has within him or herself.But after so many years when you complained that your efforts were not receiving the attention they should, with your new website and new associations in Hawaii IMO that's been reversed.

And to me, who has known you since 1990 and spent a day with you in Pasadena when you drove down from Bakersfield where you were at the time, that's great. Neither of us are shy passive people and the back and forth chat was rapid fire.

BTW, look for a thread in your potato Forum about a potato variety that I think you must have for breeding purposes. If you know it already, so be it, but I'll explain when I get around to posting about it.

Carolyn

[Tom Wagner]

I am sure, Carolyn, that if we were to talk on the phone or visit in person we could still have that rapid fire conversation so well remembered in California twenty three years ago. I drop my rather distinctive Kansan accent (which has some cowboy/southern drawl) when I talk fast or have something seemingly important to say.

Carolyn...of course we are off topic from Magic Trick tomato variety details, but what potato variety are you hinting at that you think I should use in breeding? I did not see a mention of it on the sub forum Potatoes.

I still want to use the word RESISTANT since the tomatoes I am working on are completely alive after heavy LB infestation kills the other tomatoes outright and my lines of double alleles of PH-2 + 3 are not only thriving but blooming clear into frost and some even have a bit of tolerance to that as well. Try to eat a tomato from a plant that only has tolerance...you just won't. Eat a tomato from a resistant plant and not only will you enjoy it compared to the black rotten fruits on other vines, but you will look for more to ripen in a few days.

Dead plant...susceptible
Partly affected..some leaves infect..plant still alive....tolerant
Plant fully untouched....resistant (PICTURES TO PROVE IT!)
I have also have potato varieties with RESISTANCE!
Notice I did not use the word IMMUNE.

LB is terrible and when I say resistance I mean it. I will not back down from my assertions and challenge anyone to disprove what I see with the strains of blight here. Of course no one will take the time to visit with me who has any gravitas to promote what I am doing with tomatoes and potatoes.

The tests results from Wales that I can't disclose since they are part of a doctorate paper but have my tomato varieties with 0 percent to maybe 1% LB infection.

Five years ago Randy's hybrids were not withstanding the LB in a resistant way...as they, too, succumbed after a few days or weeks, depending on location, since they were only carrying the dominant genes from one parent. The predecessor to my Skykomish and other close related lines were identifiably homozygous since the progeny for years later were too.


Funny, I am resistant to change but I certainly am not immune to change.

Carolyn, since you mentioned the personal challenges a plant breeder has...mainly a lack of profitable income, it remains to the readership of this and other forums to be actively involved in getting philanthropy involved...not government money.. to finance a stand alone (Non Profit) or for (Profit) organization so that breeders like me and others here can be active workers. It could be simply one that ties the non profit with an already existing one. If forces could join...with the existing infrastructure of land, greenhouses, interns, housing, and some modest income/compensation......the world would be a better place. Ask around...I don't know how to do it...see if there are any potential contribution to such an effort. I would gladly talk on the phone...visit them...show them products...just to help the thing along. We can't depend on Kick Starters to do what needs to be done.

Don't talk to me about Grant Money. Not a single person after years of folks talking to me about it can't seemingly do anything at all. Grant money thrown at impoverished breeders is not the answer anyway. I do know that charities are starting formal efforts to seek money from individuals after years of focusing almost exclusively on soliciting foundation and corporate money. I live in Boeing, MicroSoft, Amazon country but have no knowledge of how they operate.

I would gladly join a panel of fund-raising experts to learn how best to appeal to individuals and get practical tips and strategies to help a plant breeder's farm learn techniques to attract money from individuals in these challenging financial times.


I will throw a bone out there to start something. I had not talked about this yet. Some my potato varieties have been tested for the good starch and have been found super high in Amylose....far higher than current varieties. Want to do something about diabetes? Want to do something about obesity? Want to lessen the glycemic spike in potatoes? Want to locate donations to support this?

Tom Wagner

[Redbaron]

I hear you on the philanthropy issue Tom. I experienced it myself with my Red Baron Project. Along comes a philanthropist, "Wow that is great", they say. "I'll provide the land", they say. "It is revolutionary and will benefit agriculture so much it is the scale of what Nobel prizes are made of" they say. But when it comes down to actually following through? Nada. Just words. Not only are they not providing the land, they don't even have the cahones to join the project with their own land doing it themselves.

At least you found a way to get your project out there and providing benefit for society. It may seem somewhat random and out of control, but your advanced seeds are growing and producing food for people. I commend you for that. And that's why even though I don't really have the space to grow your new experimental corn, I do it anyway. I am eager to help you any way I can, however small. Because your vision is truly that important. Just as NCtomatoman's vision is also that important. And Tatiana's, and Chance's, and Dr. Carolyn's, and so many others here at T'ville.

[jennifer28]

Tom,

I am aligned with a non-profit that is dedicated to feeding people below the povertly line in urban cities.

Their mission intersects with your breeding goals because you are using your knowledge to make food that makes life better for people...

which really IS THE BIG IDEA for SOCIETY, isn't ?

I don't want to write all about it publicly but I will connect with you privately about it on Tater Mater or through email.

My new nickname for you is going to be "Burbank," but I know your legacy will fare better than his!

Jennifer