Hmmm Shadow boxing? maybe not...

[doublehelix]

I'm not sure why these are being called clones. A clone is created through asexual reproduction from a common tissue source. These various versions of Shadow Boxing are in fact "varieties". There are at least 5 varieties now all with the same name. I personally don't think it is right selling people hybrid seed without telling them on the front end what they are getting. There really isn't any good way to deal with multiple varieties all with the same name no matter how you spin it.

[Tom Wagner]

Steve, we have talked on the phone a time or two and I think you are doing some great work. Thanks!
That said, let me explain myself when and why I use certain terms.

Your message:

I'm not sure why these are being called clones. A clone is created through asexual reproduction from a common tissue source.

There is an over-lap of my terminology of breeding terms since I work heavily in potatoes and not just tomatoes. The very reason I call some of my Shadow Boxing tomato seeds clones is that they would need to be maintained as clones...as you say...asexually reproduced since the individual vines are still in recombination mode. There will be a growing venue for clonal varieties in the future. I have proposals out for that very thing now. Potatoes are usually hybrids and the tuber line is called a variety and a clone. Yes, it can only be reproduced from the tubers to be that variety. A selfed Yukon Gold from TPS is not Yukon Gold.

The Shadow Boxing variety...I put the name on it even though it is under segregating and recombinant selection. Most folks are growing primarily F-3 and F-4 plants. As the recessives and dominate traits bounce about....the various individual vines are measurably different and are essentially clones since they not fixed in the genetic stability or uniformity.

These various versions of Shadow Boxing are in fact "varieties". There are at least 5 varieties now all with the same name.

Shadow Boxing is creating an interesting mess for tomato variety purists. Some of the more interesting "clones" are in fact heterozygous in one or more traits and may have to be maintained as such. In other words, the seed can only be saved from the exact same heterozygous units each filial level to eternity. When it is just one trait...one only has to save seed from half of the plants to keep the trait going that will produce seed with the same ratio. On some of the more 'exotic' clones, I see two traits in heterosis. Those clones can only be maintained by searching for the one out of 16 that show that exact combination each year. That creates a dilemma for seed maintenance and the expression in the seedling family is not expedient. That means I would have to re-create that type of Shadow Boxing clone by crossing two true breeding "clones" to produce that special Shadow Boxing seed each year to show those two phenotypic characterizations. The actual number of potentially true breeding Shadow Boxing "varieties" that could be obtained is staggering even to me, and the number of clonal hybrids is even more!

I personally don't think it is right selling people hybrid seed without telling them on the front end what they are getting.

Oh, I expected that concern! I am not conventional. I am a maverick. My philosophy is pretty much up front...."Mama always said life was like a box of tomatoes. You never know what you're gonna get."

My plan is to offer more and more F-1's along with many F-2, F-3, etc., progenies. In fact when I list so-called 'stable' "varieties", all of my competitors will undersell my breeder/vendor versions. Even though I may have the full filial level on record and have the stamp of approval on my true breeding lines...I fully expect not to recoup my investments on those pure lines.

There really isn't any good way to deal with multiple varieties all with the same name no matter how you spin it.

It sure makes it difficult for my competitor vendors to issue the same variety without just being copy cats. If I have hundreds of multiple sub classes for Shadow Boxing, that is my worry. I can issue one or several of them in my listings. I could limit it to one if I thought I had a general consensus. I could even collect from many of my customers their favorite Shadow Boxing tomato lines and mass sib pollinate the entire lot just to have the greatest diversity possible. Multiple varieties makes it relevant to find the future variety for that variety.

Combining ability is a reason why we may envision more clones of tomatoes in the future...either through rooted cuttings or by phenotypic/marker groupings. Providing a diverse germplasm increases the chances for translocation, crossing over, deletions, additions, and all the mutation like accidents that would foster an appreciation for clonal selection and maintenance.

There are undoubtedly more varieties of tomatoes out in the market than just about any other fruit/vegetable. I want to make it so no one can collect them all, nor would want to. I want some to be stewards of these new varieties and share back with me after several years. I want young kids taking on an obscure tomato project...maybe one just for them only and make it work for them. I want something new under the sun an every day occurrence.

Challenging the gardener to be part of the breeding/selection process is part of my agenda. Some want tidy, well defined adventures with tomatoes, others are OK with organized disorder. Welcome to my world. So many varieties that have shown up in the last number of years were accidents. I don't make accidents, I make purposeful train wrecks out of tomatoes...planned and picking up the pieces.

[Redbaron]

Might I suggest a simple solution to your dilemma Tom? Just section your website into stable and experimental cultivars. Then ask for people to drop you some seeds back in trade of the experimental cultivars for only the cost of shipping and handling. So for example if a customer buys an experimental like shadow boxing, and then finds one he particularly likes, just for the cost of shipping and handling he could send you his variety and try a new experimental. That would help you develop your lines in areas of the country that have different growing conditions from Washington, and at the same time customers would know they are getting seed that is still in development. Any customers that prefer a stable line could order things like green zebra from the other section of your website.

I am curious Tom. Why would you give out your trade secret of back crossing a F (n+1) to a clone of the parent F(n)? I am sure you realize most breeders of tomatoes don't use this technique even if they have even heard of it.

[Jayc]

A little bit of antho developing on my Dwarf Shadow Boxing