willow and kelp

[Cole_Robbie]

Interesting discussion!

I don't know what you mean by "bacteria-free hydroponics" though. I wasn't aware that the bacteria in hydro roots are much different than the bacteria on soil roots.

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

Interesting discussion!

I don't know what you mean by "bacteria-free hydroponics" though. I wasn't aware that the bacteria in hydro roots are much different than the bacteria on soil roots.

You're correct about bacteria on soil roots, but what is missing in "deep water" and "ebb-and-flow in rock" is an abundance and variety of decaying matter. That bacteria is missing and is needed for the specific carbohydrate breakdown. The Clemson study and the studies it reviews -- very thorough. So in this kind of hydroponic environment or when used as a foliar spray, the only constituent of the kelp extract with efficacy is the gibberellic acid.

Having thought about Ray's comments a bit more, perhaps there is some confusion about the nature of chelates. A chelate is metal ion (or metal ion compound) that is ionically bounded to another molecule -- typically a carbon molecule of some sort. The chemical or biochemical process of separating or utilizing the metal ion is exactly the same process as for an ionic salt. For example, potassium ion(s) in ligno-sulfate chelate vs. potassium ions in Sul-Po-Mag.

As for the metals detected by spectrograph analysis of seaweed: Kelp physically incorporates microsilts into its structures. Certainly there are also a few present in the carbohydrates but the vast majority are in the silts which are covalent solids. Plants can't access these. That is why on the labels of the kelp products I'm familiar with you will not find secondary and micronutrient metal ions listed on the Guaranteed Analysis.

I have nothing against seaweed extract! For heaven's sake I sell it by the bottle, case, and pallet -- several pallets' worth a year in all. But as a seller I also want to be honest about it. It is not a panacea for plants, nor is it a plant nutrient. It is a growth regulator, and a very good one at that.

[amideutch]

Here is some info on one of the products and what it does from BioAtlantis I mentioned earlier derived from Ascophyllum nodosum.


http://www.bioatlantis.com/index.php/superfifty/

http://www.fluidfertilizer.com/Forum...y%20Norrie.pdf

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by amideutch

Here is some info on one of the products and what it does from BioAtlantis I mentioned earlier derived from Ascophyllum nodosum.


http://www.bioatlantis.com/index.php/superfifty/

http://www.fluidfertilizer.com/Forum...y%20Norrie.pdf

The BioAtlantis advertisement is in complete agreement with what I've said here. Their claim of having the highest concentration (500 g/liter) is true -- although that same concentration is available from a number of other suppliers. Here in the U.S., look for 26% concentrate kelp extract.

The second paper is proceedings from an industry conference. It is marketing in nature and also in complete agreement with what I've presented here.

Not everything that encourages plant growth is a nutrient. Many of them fall into the category of growth regulators -- also known to consumers as hormones, etc. This is the nature of seaweed extract.

The hormone product "Superthrive" makes the same misleading statements about mineral content on the label as do some sellers of seaweed extract. The manufacturer of Superthrive makes this mineral claim because the product contains seaweed extract. However, it's most potent ingredient is triacontanol - extracted from alfalfa. It is a powerful plant hormone. In my opinion a better product called Jump Start is manufactured by the agricultural supplier Grow More Inc. It contains a higher concentration and also a better balance of hormones from other sources to provide a more uniform reaction by the plant.

[RayR]

Interesting stuff Hermitian.
I've never heard of "microsilts" before in anything I've read about Kelp or anything else, so I don't understand why the minerals are held so tightly in covalent bonds that it would take such a long time for them to degrade and be made available.

Looking over the ingredients of Grow More Jump Start, there is "EDTA Amino Acid". What the heck is that, that doesn't even make sense, or is that just a typo with the comma in the wrong place? Maybe it is really Iron and Zinc mineral EDTA. I don't like the idea of EDTA chelated minerals in anything I use since EDTA is not biodegradable and is toxic to many beneficial microorganisms.

Superthrive is something I've stayed away from, that tacky over the top 1940's snake oil style marketing just turns me off. I also understand it's not all organic.

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by RayR

Interesting stuff Hermitian.
I've never heard of "microsilts" before in anything I've read about Kelp or anything else, so I don't understand why the minerals are held so tightly in covalent bonds that it would take such a long time for them to degrade and be made available.

The microsilts are silts that are too small to see with the naked eye. They are physically, not chemically incorporated in the plant. They are covalent rock; e.g., quartz.

The chelated minerals you are familiar with are ionically bound. Plants can and do mobilize the metal ions from chelates. No significant amount of nutrient minerals in kelp are ionically bound in chelate forms.

Originally Posted by RayR

Looking over the ingredients of Grow More Jump Start, there is "EDTA Amino Acid" ...

EDTA is an Amino Acid.

[RayR]

Originally Posted by Hermitian

The microsilts are silts that are too small to see with the naked eye. They are physically, not chemically incorporated in the plant. They are covalent rock; e.g., quartz.

So they are sort of like part of the structural support of the kelp?
I understand what you're saying, the minerals/metals are in crystalline form as mineral rock for the long haul. Like your analogy with Quartz which is an insoluble silicate vs. Silicic acid which is soluble silica and can be used by plants.

Originally Posted by Hermitian

The chelated minerals you are familiar with are ionically bound. Plants can and do mobilize the metal ions from chelates. No significant amount of nutrient minerals in kelp are ionically bound in chelate forms.

Actually I'm familiar with both ionically bonded and covalently bonded chelates.
Ionic bonds are relatively weak though and can't always protect the mineral from being stolen away from the chelator and potentially combining with some other element or molecule into an insoluble form, where a colvalent bond really protects the mineral in a soluble form until it enters a plant cell.

Originally Posted by Hermitian

EDTA is an Amino Acid.

EDTA is amino acid-like, but it isn't a natural amino acid. It's a man-made molecule, a aminopolycarboxylic salt. It's toxicity to gram negative bacteria is well documented in lab and field conditions. It may not be such an issue in a hydroponic water culture, but in growing organically in soil it brings up serious concerns.

EDTA has antibacterial activity and metal chelation of the ligand reduces this activity25. The effect of chelating agents upon gram negative bacteria has been reported. EDTA causes disruption of the outer membrane, since it is capable of removing its calcic and magnesic divalent cations, with the consequent loss of substantial amounts of lipopolysacharide, which in turn, make cells susceptible to the action of many substances such as detergents, proteases, lipases and lysozymes26-28. Hennecken et al.4 clearly show a total inhibition of a bacterial consortium by free EDTA, these bacteria only manage to degrade EDTA if it is complexed with equimolar quantities of calcium or magnesium ions. More here

[bower]

Kelp and kelp extracts also contain betaines and other osmoprotectant substances, that help to protect plants from abiotic stress and induce stress tolerance genes.

See for example the work on glycinebetaine in tomato heat stress tolerance:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21711358
where gb in the growth medium or imbibed by the seeds produced the same stress tolerance benefits and gene expression as a transgene producing gb endogenously.

A lot of recent stress tolerance research is focused on glycine betaine because it is available as a transgene, but that doesn't exclude the probability that other osmoprotectant betaines have similar benefits. There are conflicting reports of the actual betaine composition in kelp, some report glycine betaine and others not, but betaines and other osmoprotectant substances are certainly present.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10526988
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20433077
and stress tolerance effects are observed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19363684

Just, maybe another reason for some of the observed benefits of kelp.

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by RayR

So they are sort of like part of the structural support of the kelp?
I understand what you're saying, the minerals/metals are in crystalline form as mineral rock for the long haul. Like your analogy with Quartz which is an insoluble silicate vs. Silicic acid which is soluble silica and can be used by plants.

Yes.

Originally Posted by RayR

Actually I'm familiar with both ionically bonded and covalently bonded chelates.

There are no covalently bonded chelates of metal ions, because by definition all chelates are ion bonds. Now the chelating agent is certainly composed of covalent bonds, but not the metal ion it traps.

Originally Posted by RayR

EDTA ... isn't a natural amino acid.

True. It's actually a good thing that it does not break down in plants because it serves as a nutrient transport throughout the life of the plant. The actual quantity present in a water soluble dosage is so small that toxicity to soil bacteria is not an issue. However, if you don't like it -- don't use it! There are alternative choices for plant nutrients and hormones.

Originally Posted by bower

Just, maybe another reason for some of the observed benefits of kelp.

Or its just another over-generalization. The Clemson study covered this well.

[epsilon]

so in using kelp, Would it be best to let it sit for a few days (possibly after some non salt water soaking?) before working it into the compost mixture? or would it be okay to jsut shred it and work it in directly?

[bower]

Originally Posted by epsilon

so in using kelp, Would it be best to let it sit for a few days (possibly after some non salt water soaking?) before working it into the compost mixture? or would it be okay to jsut shred it and work it in directly?

Hey epsilon,
If you're talking about fresh raw kelp, IMO the best usage depends on the condition of the raw material...
I found a UN/FAO page a couple years ago that recommended shredded kelp to help moisture retention in arid soils and containers. I have been doing this for several years now in my container/greenhouse tomato grow (it works well but does get consumed over the season). Since I don't want flies in my greenhouse, I have to collect kelp that is right fresh out of the water, or better yet in winter conditions when there are no flies around, for that purpose. If I have to work with kelp that has been laying on the beach for a while, I would rather pour boiling water over it and let it cool first instead, to kill any insect larvae. This makes a liquid fertilizer which is as good or better than any compost tea.

If you're in the desert, I'm guessing any kelp you collect will be either collected dried or a bit rotted (if wet) before you get it home. Either way it doesn't need to be rinsed or soaked unless it's necessary to facilitate handling, but it should be chopped up well before you dig it directly into the soil for planting. If you collect it dry on the beach it's pretty easy to crumble up into small bits. If you mix it in dry, you will want to soak the soil well afterwards so that it becomes hydrated, or else crumble it into a bucket, soak, and then mix in.

I've never seen any harm from whatever seawater is left on the kelp, not in our soils, but of course if your soil is especially troubled by its own salinity it might be better to rinse. If you do soak partly rotted kelp, the water from that is such a fantastic fertilizer, don't discard it for fear of the salt, for sure.

If you're using the kelp for making compost, no need to shred or rinse, just use it as a layer in the pile - it will be a hot layer just like manure.

Some farmers here where kelp is abundant would just collect it all year long and throw it into a bin to rot down for use the next year as a pure kelp compost... the vegetables grown with it are super sweet, especially carrots. Although our carrots are generally sweet here, compared to the supermarket product shipped in from California! Don't know how people eat that bitter stuff!

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by bower

Although our carrots are generally sweet here, compared to the supermarket product shipped in from California! Don't know how people eat that bitter stuff!

The carrots grown for mass production have been bred for durability and shelf-life. The first step in sweeter carrots is to pick a better variety.

[bughunter99]

Fascinating discussion.

Hermitian or others, in your opinion will the calcium and magnesium in this be readily available to plants?

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-...crab12pail.gif

Stacy

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by bughunter99

Fascinating discussion.
Hermitian or others, in your opinion will the calcium and magnesium in this be readily available to plants?
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-...crab12pail.gif
Stacy

Stacy,

The minerals listed in the Guaranteed Analysis of any U.S. fertilizer product from a reputable manufacturer are definitely available to plants -- as is the case with product.

The directions are good too - this product takes a long time to break down. As with any fertilizer, I would never dig it into the root zone of plants. Instead, put it on top of the soil but underneath the 3"-4" layer of mulch you have around all the plants you care about. Or, if that is too tedious simply mix it into the mulch.

People in the southwestern U.S. (especially southern CA) should think twice before using this product. Our soils already have copious amounts of Calcium.

[epsilon]

Originally Posted by bower

If you're in the desert, I'm guessing any kelp you collect will be either collected dried or a bit rotted (if wet) before you get it home. Either way it doesn't need to be rinsed or soaked unless it's necessary to facilitate handling, but it should be chopped up well before you dig it directly into the soil for planting. If you collect it dry on the beach it's pretty easy to crumble up into small bits. If you mix it in dry, you will want to soak the soil well afterwards so that it becomes hydrated, or else crumble it into a bucket, soak, and then mix in.

The desert is a pretty vague use of terminolgy for CA, I live in Moreno Valley which is a a few hops and a skip from the beach. Which I'm planning on going out to, this weekend for kelp gathering.(I might take a 1 gallon bottle and fill up on some sea water as well) seeing as that we've been graced with close to mid spring time temps. I figure I might as well commit to some harvesting before the beaches become a pita and too crowded. so I'll be carrying an assortment of dry and moist kelp bits back home with me.

Also thanks for the info on using the rinse water as a fertilizer. I remember some years ago when I used to spend a months income on kelp drink for my orchids. and boy did they love it.