'Hearty' Indian Stripe Hearts???

[travis]

I am back home. My garden is a mess. Monster plants had to be wacked and hacked back into submission. Weeds out of control.

The reason I asked about Indian Stripe Heart origin is that back about 2008, 2009 or so, a lady in Washington State told me she had gotten a heart shaped tomato from Indian Stripe seeds I sent her. I don't remember her name but she went by the nickname BlueLytes.

She sent me some seeds, but they were all unviable. The seeds were tiny and white as if they were either immature or had the seed hulls completely fermented off and only the endoplasm remained.

The seeds I had sent her were saved from Indian Stripe plants grown for two or three years from seeds I got from Victory Seed Co., but back then I did not bag blossoms, so they could've been crossed with who knows what, and I could not fathom a guess at this time.

I do not know who else BlueLytes shared the "heart shaped" seed with, but remember that in the next couple of years some folks did report a repeat of the heart shaped purple fruit.

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by travis

I am having a slight reaction to my meds today, and cannot concentrate on details in the overly long posts. Please clarify a couple of things for me:

Where did the Indian Stripe Heart tomato originate, in whose garden?

Who supplied the original Indian Stripe Heart seeds referred to in this thread?

Who grew out the increased seed lot from which the IS Heart seeds were distributed via Carolyn?

1) Where alleged Indian Stripe Heart originated, I dunno.

2) This thread is about the offspring of the one Indian Stripe Heart plant that grew to maturity in my garden from Carolyn's 2013 seed offer. As most of the fruit was similar to fruit from other Indian Stripe plants, I considered them marginal hearts, at best, and inquired if anyone had reliably gotten heart shaped Indian Stripe fruit. No one spoke up -- few apparently got any results at all from that seed -- but as Carolyn said that she knew the the source of her seed had been genuine hearts, I've worked with my saved seed from 2013 until/unless some clear cut IS hearts appear from some source.

Ginger2278 expressed a desire to try the seeds in 2014 so, figuring that her much longer season might get a clearer heart/not heart result, I sent her seeds from five different IS Heart? tomatoes. I also sent her seeds from my best Indian Stripe Potato Leaf plant.

She grew both in 2014, as did I. Our season here was cut short by snow and freezing temps in September -- but the results I did get included what were at best marginal hearts.

Ginger asked me if I minded if she included her 2014 production of IS Heart? seed and IS Potato Leaf in her seed offer early this year. I told her that I thought it would be fine to include IS Potato Leaf, as I'd sent her bagged seed from my best plant, and it had performed well for her, but that I thought that the IS Heart? seed should be distributed only if it's faintly heartish tendencies are the best IS heart seed available. As no source appeared to be offering better IS Heart seed, she distributed it with a request that recipients save seeds only from heart shaped fruit.

That might produce some hearty results, but at this point I remain somewhat skeptical about IS heart -- except that I am sure that if Carolyn says she got them from a reliable IS heart producer, someone was getting reliable IS hearts at some time.

And it is interesting that Ginger2278 is getting some hearts that she finds encouraging. (Though I'm not sure if the difference is in the 'heartiness' of the fruits or the optimism of the observer.

But I'd sure like to hear from someone who gets IS hearts reliably. Until then, I'll keep working with this seed, or any better seed I run across or that anyone happens to find rooting around in her old undistributed seed supplies. The non-heartish plants produce nice Indian Stripe Heart tomatoes, so it's no loss of garden productivity to try for the hearts.

3) Who supplied the seed Carolyn distributed -- I dunno.

And . . . I know that it can be difficult sometimes to get through long posts -- but sometimes that's the only way to get a clear picture of a discussion.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by travis

I am back home. My garden is a mess. Monster plants had to be wacked and hacked back into submission. Weeds out of control.

The reason I asked about Indian Stripe Heart origin is that back about 2008, 2009 or so, a lady in Washington State told me she had gotten a heart shaped tomato from Indian Stripe seeds I sent her. I don't remember her name but she went by the nickname BlueLytes.

She sent me some seeds, but they were all unviable. The seeds were tiny and white as if they were either immature or had the seed hulls completely fermented off and only the endoplasm remained.

The seeds I had sent her were saved from Indian Stripe plants grown for two or three years from seeds I got from Victory Seed Co., but back then I did not bag blossoms, so they could've been crossed with who knows what, and I could not fathom a guess at this time.

I do not know who else BlueLytes shared the "heart shaped" seed with, but remember that in the next couple of years some folks did report a repeat of the heart shaped purple fruit.

What a memory.

Here's one of the e-mails from bluey;

From: bluelytes@yahoo.com
To: Cmale@aol.com
Sent: 8/5/2012 3:41:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: Indian Stripe heart work


CAROLYN,
How did the Indian Stripe Heart work for you? Have not heard from Gunner as to how they worked for him. Hope your gardening year is better than mine, which if you had a bad one, it'd be better than mine, lol.


Best;
bluey

I lost the other e-mails, all from 2012 and I DID that Today and don't know where they went, , but I did read them and she had said that her seeds were immature and kind of wispy or something like that and indeed what she sent me were no good.

At one point she said she would send some to Craig L, whether she did I don't know but perhaps that is how I got the IS heart plant he sent me.

And she sent them to Gunner and I don't know who else.

So I think it's safe to say that Bluey, who was at idig at the time, you and me as well, was the person who first saw an IS Heart from seeds you had sent her.

I haven't seen her there since but then recently I pretty much stopped going there. She was never a member here I don't think. but at least I now have her e-mail address and if it's a viable one, I can try and get an update.

Carolyn

[JLJ_]

Carolyn, I think that Nancy Ruhl's IS Heart report was a mistake as later she reported on Indian Stripe PL seeds, with all other varieties reported identical. (see post #11)

Also, I read post #7 over, and if you asked me for seeds to grow in 2014, you were too subtle for me. Ginger asked for some, and got them, but with a bunch of caveats to the effect that these were children of an Indian Stripe plant from your 2013 seed offer, but with questionable heartish tendencies. I don't think they were anything you'd have wanted to distribute.

And at the end of 2014 Ginger and I were both seeing just some heartish shapes. See this thread

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=34582 posts #14 and #19

I was hoping that when you picked out your best remaining IS Heart seeds for marktutt/boutiquetomatoes to grow out, but which I guess didn't work out, that you might have some left in a dusty corner that might be revived to see if any of them produced reliable IS hearts.

Also, I do have records of some 2010 IS Heart postings on various tomato forums -- don't want to mention as I'm not sure if they are forums that are reliable, and don't want to point anyone astray -- I only visited them some years ago in quest of IS Heart info -- anyway, there were posts about some alleged IS Heart seed that bluelytes got from 'paternal ancestor Vic' -- and there were pictures of "tiny" seed -- which I think discussion suggested was mostly immature seed -- but none of it that I saw ended up with a clear cut reliable heart shaped IS heart. And I haven't seen it anywhere since then, either -- though I don't visit many forums.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by JLJ_

Carolyn, I think that Nancy Ruhl's IS Heart report was a mistake as later she reported on Indian Stripe PL seeds, with all other varieties reported identical. (see post #11)

Also, I read post #7 over, and if you asked me for seeds to grow in 2014, you were too subtle for me. Ginger asked for some, and got them, but with a bunch of caveats to the effect that these were children of an Indian Stripe plant from your 2013 seed offer, but with questionable heartish tendencies. I don't think they were anything you'd have wanted to distribute.

And at the end of 2014 Ginger and I were both seeing just occasional heartish shapes.

I was hoping that when you picked out your best remaining IS Heart seeds for marktutt/boutiquetomatoes to grow out, but which I guess didn't work out, that you might have some left in a dusty corner that might be revived to see if any of them produced reliable IS hearts.

This was perhaps too subtle for you?

(Finally, JLJ, save seeds from those putative heart ones,, let me know when you do and then e-mail me about it and we'll come up with a game plan. Thanks.)

I am not known for being all that subtle, but no, I did not ask for the seeds for the 2014 growing season since I thought it was implied.Maybe not?

Not a problem, really and I think we solved most of what we can in terms of Bill to Bluey (OS heart), etc, and Bluey to Craig L, plant to Carolyn/

This situation reminds me so much of how Orange Minsk Heart came to be and I'll link to Tania'' page for it.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...ge_Minsk_Heart

Sometimes varieties that do not form hearts, do so when it's been said that there's sustained high heat. But sometimes when situations like this appear, meaning OM Heart, the saved seeds from the heart variants are stable.

Here's another example:

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...7s_Black_Heart

With Both OM Heart and Brad's heart it happens that both are blunt hearts but I'm not sure of the significance of that, genetically or otherwise, when it comes to IS Heart.

Carolyn

[nancyruhl]

I looked back at my report and I grew Indian Stripe Potato Leaf and Orange Minsk Heart. I have not grown Indian Stripe Heart.

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by JLJ_

1) Where alleged Indian Stripe Heart originated, I dunno.

2) This thread is about the offspring of the one Indian Stripe Heart plant that grew to maturity in my garden from Carolyn's 2013 seed offer. As most of the fruit was similar to fruit from other Indian Stripe plants, I considered them marginal hearts, at best, and inquired if anyone had reliably gotten heart shaped Indian Stripe fruit. No one spoke up -- few apparently got any results at all from that seed -- but as Carolyn said that she knew the the source of her seed had been genuine hearts, I've worked with my saved seed from 2013 until/unless some clear cut IS hearts appear from some source.

Ginger2278 expressed a desire to try the seeds in 2014 so, figuring that her much longer season might get a clearer heart/not heart result, I sent her seeds from five different IS Heart? tomatoes. I also sent her seeds from my best Indian Stripe Potato Leaf plant.

She grew both in 2014, as did I. Our season here was cut short by snow and freezing temps in September -- but the results I did get included what were at best marginal hearts.

Ginger asked me if I minded if she included her 2014 production of IS Heart? seed and IS Potato Leaf in her seed offer early this year. I told her that I thought it would be fine to include IS Potato Leaf, as I'd sent her bagged seed from my best plant, and it had performed well for her, but that I thought that the IS Heart? seed should be distributed only if it's faintly heartish tendencies are the best IS heart seed available. As no source appeared to be offering better IS Heart seed, she distributed it with a request that recipients save seeds only from heart shaped fruit.

That might produce some hearty results, but at this point I remain somewhat skeptical about IS heart -- except that I am sure that if Carolyn says she got them from a reliable IS heart producer, someone was getting reliable IS hearts at some time.

And it is interesting that Ginger2278 is getting some hearts that she finds encouraging. (Though I'm not sure if the difference is in the 'heartiness' of the fruits or the optimism of the observer.

But I'd sure like to hear from someone who gets IS hearts reliably. Until then, I'll keep working with this seed, or any better seed I run across or that anyone happens to find rooting around in her old undistributed seed supplies. The non-heartish plants produce nice Indian Stripe Heart tomatoes, so it's no loss of garden productivity to try for the hearts.

3) Who supplied the seed Carolyn distributed -- I dunno.

And . . . I know that it can be difficult sometimes to get through long posts -- but sometimes that's the only way to get a clear picture of a discussion.

JLJ, the entire third round of ISH fruit from around February to April was entirely all blunt heart shaped, not just my optimism! about the last 12 fruit on the plant.

[MarinaRussian]

Here are some ISH fruits, grown in 2013.... Yes, some were more blunt than others..... but they are hearts

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by ginger2778

JLJ, the entire third round of ISH fruit from around February to April was entirely all blunt heart shaped, not just my optimism! about the last 12 fruit on the plant.

That *is* interesting . . . when I sent you the seeds we were wondering whether the longer, warmer season might produce heartier results. Were those from seeds I sent or from some you grew earlier in the season? Were they from any particular seed batch? Did you get any pics of those last 12?

One thing that maintains my skepticism in the fruit I've seen here is that if compared to the fruit of Indian Stripe original or potato leaf, it is not clear that heart shape is more clearly present in the IS Heart tomatoes than it is in any other Indian stripe tomato. Maybe . . . possibly . . . some suggestion that it might be . . . but not enough that I feel confident enough to be sure of their heartiness.

Temps and other climate factors could play a role . . . but other hearts grow here and look like hearts. If the flea beetles and the cold and the hot and the moose don't get them. (At least pythons aren't known for their interest in tomatoes.

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by JLJ_

That *is* interesting . . . when I sent you the seeds we were wondering whether the longer, warmer season might produce heartier results. Were those from seeds I sent or from some you grew earlier in the season? Were they from any particular seed batch? Did you get any pics of those last 12?

One thing that maintains my skepticism in the fruit I've seen here is that if compared to the fruit of Indian Stripe original or potato leaf, it is not clear that heart shape is more clearly present in the IS Heart tomatoes than it is in any other Indian stripe tomato. Maybe . . . possibly . . . some suggestion that it might be . . . but not enough that I feel confident enough to be sure of their heartiness.

Temps and other climate factors could play a role . . . but other hearts grow here and look like hearts. If the flea beetles and the cold and the hot and the moose don't get them. (At least pythons aren't known for their interest in tomatoes.

I searched for pictures, but I must have forgotten to get some.
They were from a plant grown directly from your seeds. Mine looked exactly like Marina's bottom one in the photo. For sure they were heart shaped. We do start to get warm in February. The plant shared the same Earthbox with ISPL, and the shape comparison was made easily.
In my case, it's if my black Lab mix doesn't get em!

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

This was perhaps too subtle for you?

(Finally, JLJ, save seeds from those putative heart ones,, let me know when you do and then e-mail me about it and we'll come up with a game plan. Thanks.)

I am not known for being all that subtle, but no, I did not ask for the seeds for the 2014 growing season since I thought it was implied.Maybe not?

The above was from a post in late February of 2014 -- if it implied that you wanted some seeds to grow in the 2014 season, I think you underrate your tendency to be subtle.

What I really think you meant at the time was that if the 2014 crop produced 'hearty' results you wanted to know, but as per above discussion, I haven't seen any hearty performance that would warrant distribution. Though Ginger2278's most recent crop this spring and MarinaRussian's pic of her 2013 fruit suggest that there is hope that a consistent IS heart producing plant may turn up.

If I do see a consistent IS heart producer -- from this seed line or any other -- you would certainly be welcome to a whole heap of its seeds.

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by ginger2778

. . . They were from a plant grown directly from your seeds. Mine looked exactly like Marina's bottom one in the photo. For sure they were heart shaped. We do start to get warm in February. The plant shared the same Earthbox with ISPL, and the shape comparison was made easily. . . .

That is great!

Hopefully you saved lots of seeds from those fruit? You asked me what you could send me back in exchange for the seeds I sent you . . . some of those seeds would be good.

From your earlier observations the hearty look was less apparent in your first two rounds . . . do you know what batch of seeds the performing plant came from?

Was the 'third round' heart producer a different plant, or did it just have to warm up with two earlier production periods before it got serious about producing hearts?

One thing we may be dealing with in chasing a consistent IS Heart producer is the tendency Carolyn has mentioned for heart seeds to be less long lasting that other tomato seeds. I noticed lower germination with those 2013 seeds this year than last year.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by MarinaRussian

Here are some ISH fruits, grown in 2013.... Yes, some were more blunt than others..... but they are hearts

Marina, thanks so much for your picture.

And no, I haven't forgotten that I owe you an e-mail, not about IS, rather, the other "stuff".

Carolyn

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by ginger2778

Carolyn, I think I have enough ISH seeds that I can send you some, but I'll have to check to be sure. If I have enough (12-15) do you want some?

Yes Marsha, I would very much like some.

I started out listing this variety in my 2013 annual seed offer and I'd very much like to send some seeds to one of my seed producers to be grown out next summer so I can offer it again, well it would be Shawn in charge starting with the 2016 offer in Jan, but I'll be the one always looking for varieties new to all or most and that ever since I could no longer grow my own after I severed those quad muscles.

Same for you Marina, if you have any extra seeds.

Right now I'm very pleased about how all of this is turning out.

So thanks to all of you who have helped work through this with me to get the story as straight as I think we can.

Carolyn

[carolyn137]

I just checked and Bluey is a member here, joined in 2006 the first year Tville was open and last posted in 2013.

So I'll send her a PM from here as well as one using her e-mail address, and with both linking to this thread and asking her if there are any updates and/or comments she wants to make.

Carolyn