Sophie's Choice

[Grub]

Manto,

PM me your addy.

I know it's here somewhere but it might be easier to just send it.

Thanx,

Grub

[gardengalrn]

I've grown Sophie's Choice for a couple of years. Outstanding last year, mainly because I grew one in the garden and one in a pot. This year I just did one in a pot and it did not do well at all. I would back Caroline's thoughts on this, that it does not like to be dry. At times my potted plants might get a little wilty before I water (my bad, I know) but only the Sophie's seemed to suffer on-going ill effects. I really loved it last year, really pumped out great tasting tomatoes right into the heat of the summer when it finally pooted out. I had thought it would be a perfect container plant due to its size and habit but I think I'll keep it in the regular garden from here on out. I can't trust my watering abilities....

[Grub]

Considering its low-growth habit, Sophie's Choice would be a sneaky one to slip in to the end of the bed.

Being in the NH that would be your southern end. Here it's the opposite.

Always room for a nice little tommy at the end of the bed, I reckon.

For me, it's worked very well in a pot with no more or less water than any other variety.

But then my mix has water-holding crystals, 15cm of mulch on top, and I don't use black pots.

[bluelytes]

Anyone know if this is determinate/indeterminate?? How big does it get? Taste? Acid level? Sugar level? Days to maturity?

Best;
bluelytes

[carolyn137]

Anyone know if this is determinate/indeterminate?? How big does it get? Taste? Acid level? Sugar level? Days to maturity?


Sophie's Choice is determinate, which I think was mentioned above as was the height which is around two feet.

Taste is something only you can determine since that trait is both personal and genetic and depends on many variables involved in growing it.


Some in posts above have already spoken to taste, as in they like it, and for an early, so do I. I don't like to give exact DTM's b'c I know they are sheer guesstimates so lets just say it's an early, which puts in at around less than about 65-70 days.

Acid level, as in pH, and sugar level, as in Brix determination, are not normally done on most of the OP heirlooms, rather, on hybrids, and I know of no Brix or pH levels for Sophie's Choice.

Since taste is not dependent on either sugar or pH, rather, there are over 400 organic compounds known to be involved with taste of a given variety, although not yet IDed to gene, I don't think those values would factor in that much to Sophie's Choice, or indeed, most OP heirlooms.

[creister]

I grew one in a five gallon bucket. Mixed one third compost and two thirds pro mix, two cups of espoma tomato tone. Gave it alot of water, more when hot. It was very productive and I really like the size and taste of the fruit. I will grow two in pots next year. My plants looked like the ones in Grubs photos. I bought my seeds from Sandhill Farms.

[mdvpc]

Grub-what is your mulch? looks like redwood to me-at least thats what we get around here that looks like that.

[Grub]

MDVPC,

It's sugarcane mulch. Not bad stuff. I also do well with lucerne which has higher N. This stuff hasn't much of anything in it but packs down well and holds moisture and keeps the splashback down. I buy bales and bales of it.

Lucerne is costly and breaks down very quickly. Better for aiding and amending soil in the patch. I have tried tea-tree but I don't like any form of woodchips. I like the finer stuff. Grass would be good if I could guarantee it didn't seed my patch. Newspaper's okay.

I pack it down, water, pack down, water, and eventually it settles and the pottng mix below, even after a week of hot dry weather, will be cool and still moistish. Mulch is go.

This variety looks like it has enough potential that it would be quite worth adapting it to drought-conditions. For that reason, I'm considering growing it every year for a while from saved seed to see if it makes a difference for it. Lacking that, we could always cross it with Taos or something.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by shule1

This variety looks like it has enough potential that it would be quite worth adapting it to drought-conditions. For that reason, I'm considering growing it every year for a while from saved seed to see if it makes a difference for it. Lacking that, we could always cross it with Taos or something.

Good heavens,this thread has been revived from 2006, the first year that Tville started.

I know this variety very well

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Sophie%27s_Choice

And I don't consider Edmonton,Canada to be an area with drought and I don't think Barry even grew it much if ever,he had subscribed to the International news letter that Craig L and I had started in the early 90's and passed it along to me. It wasn't a message type newsletter at all.

Shule, whatareyourreasons forthinnkingthisvarietymightbeagoodonetoadapttodro ughtconditions?

Right now I forget where you live and garden and didn't want to lose this post to go back and find out.

And why Taos,Tania has little info but I once searched it for someone and I think it was introduced by Karen in MI at her site,last I knew she sold only plants,but you can update me on that if you would.

Carolyn

Oh. I guess I must have been reading a thread on a different site about the drought or something (probably GW), but a few people said it had trouble with it. Taos appears to be similar in that it's supposed to be fairly early, large for an earlish tomato, tasty, red, and cold-tolerant, but also drought-tolerant and heat-tolerant. So, crossing the two *might* produce a pretty similar tomato with extra drought-tolerance.

EDIT: I guess post #17 here was one of the things I saw on the drought. I believe I saw at least two other indicators. I guess I'll find out how it does when I grow it! Maybe it doesn't have big issues with drought.

EDIT: What you said in post #5 about how it likes it on the wet side and not being dried out was another thing I was thinking about.

I live and garden in southwestern Idaho. If you're like most people you're probably thinking it's cold and wet here, but that's a different part of Idaho (Idaho has a number of climates). It's kind of desert-like in the summer (including in that night-time lows are often 30°+ F. cooler than the daytime highs). It's not as dry as southern Utah or anything, but it's drier than most areas in the USA. The winter can be very cold. The winter and spring can be very wet and undesert-like, but not always. The weather is very variable depending on the year, but you can *always* count on it being hot enough to require heat-tolerant tomatoes to set fruit in the hottest temperatures for the year. I don't know of a year where it's never gotten to 100° F. and stayed around that for a good while. Every other year it gets to about 106-110° F. for at least one to three weeks. Last year was a record in late June where it got to about 116° F. July was cooler than late June, interestingly, but still hot. It starts to cool down a little in mid September, normally, I believe. It's dry enough to where spider mites abound easily and when it's hot the weeds won't even germinate in bare dirt unless you water it for a few days (which was a relief last year as they were really trying earlier on). Anyway, people who live here often think it's more temperate and average for USA weather than it is, though. It's like eastern Oregon, if you've been there (with all the sagebrush, Russian olive trees and stuff; not at all like Portland).

Anyway, I just thought the tomato's description was pretty awesome, and I thought I'd like a tomato like that, which was drought-tolerant. I'm not saying it would be particularly easy or difficult to adapt it to drought, but I am saying I think I would like to make it drought-tolerant. From what people say it sounds like it can still do well in dry areas if you give it enough water. So, it doesn't sound utterly intolerant to dry conditions. Some plants seem to care about how dry the air is, too (but maybe it's the sunlight penetrating the soil).

[carolyn137]

Just a few comments.

Adaptation of grains,rice, some veggies,etc.,takes thousands of years to happen as the Ethiopian Wheat story has shown.

Short term adaptation has not worked for anyone I know as to tomatoes but I know several who have tried, such as Chuck Wyatt when he introduced Joyce's Brandywine from selecting the earliest Brandywine fruits and said it was earlier than convential Brandywine,which for him and me alike is the Sudduth/Quiseberry strain..

Those who bought his seeds did not get anything earlier..

It was Jeff McCormack when he owned SESE who said that it didn't do well in southern climes, and that may be true,I don't know.

I I don't know all the regional areas of NYS,how could one,so I understand when you said there are many microclimes in Idaho.

I do know a few folks who came from Idaho and have shared what it was like when they were there where they lived and gardened.

One is Glenn Drowns who owns Sandhill Preservation and it was in Idaho that he bred Blacktail Mountain H20 melon, and growing tomatoes wasn't the easiest.

The other person I know who does live in Idaho is paddymc,perhaps you've seen his recent pictures of his crosses in the photo Forum,absolutely outstanding.

And where he is it's no problem growing any tomato variety he wants to grow.

I never saw Idaho as being all that wet, but I did so for Oregon, also know many who live there.

Carolyn

@Carolyn

I don't believe that it has to take thousands of years to adapt a variety. Tomatoes have not been in all the areas they're adapted to for thousands of years. Hybridization may play a large role, but I don't think it's the only factor. I think a lot of it is how you grow, which fruits you harvest from and which seeds of those fruits you use.

Watermelon are sometimes known for being desert crops since they came from the desert (supposedly). However, most varieties of watermelon in the USA are quite adapted to hot, humid, wet regions, these days, and balk at the cool nights in deserts. That didn't take thousands of years to happen. The Ali Baba watermelon, according to some people, is the same variety as Charleston Gray (although it could be a cross), although it's been in the Middle East for an indeterminate amount of time. But, it is highly adapted to drought while I understand that Charleston Gray is not. Now, that may or may not be chance mutation, but chance mutations can also contribute to adaptation, and you're much more likely to see them if you grow the crops in situations where the mutations shine. Whatever the case, adaptations can happen in a short amount of time, whether or not they necessarily will inevitably happen.

From what Joseph Lofthouse says, it sounds like plants can adapt fairly quickly (i.e. not thousands of years) to fertilizer applications or the lack thereof, unless he's just standing on principle, or leaving some information out.

All that being said, I'm sure there are reasons it might take thousands of years for certain things to happen, but that's no reason to disbelieve the possibilities.

Were they actually trying to adapt the grain? Or were they just growing it? They might have had standards that inadvertently excluded the likelihood of quicker adaptation. I mean, they might have coddled their crops or some such to get more immediate results, rather than longer term gains with poor immediate results. They might not have been able to afford poor immediate results. They might have known no reason to do otherwise. But I don't know. That was thousands of years ago. Lots of stuff could have happened, and the scenarios I suggested for thought could be severely wrong.

I believe Blacktail Mountain was bred further northeast. Up there it's cooler and wetter (they don't have to irrigate further north, I'm told, but my town was founded on a canal system--so, it's important here), although some areas up north can still get super hot for a short time (like areas I've been camping). They probably have a lot more acidic soil, too, since pine trees are everywhere, and bilberries/huckleberries grow. It sure smells good in pine forests. I don't know if their area where they grew the watermelon was like that, but probably a lot closer to that than my area is. You pretty much only see pine trees in my area if people plant them. We have two in our backyard. I do plan to grow Blacktail Mountain this year. It's one of the few watermelons that people know can tolerate cool nights well. I'm not sure how it'll do, yet, though. I've heard mixed reviews.

Tomatoes aren't hard to grow in my area, per se, although zucchini is easier. Tomatoes here are popular, in fact. It's just you may not get a fruit set during the heat, if you choose a non-tolerant variety. You can still get fruit to set before and after the heat, however. Most people buy plants and seeds locally, though, it seems. So, they're mostly growing hybrids (most of which are tolerant to lots of stuff) as well as Roma, and Yellow/Red Pear, but you occasionally see other stuff. So, most people probably don't notice how heat affects crops much. I didn't, much, until I started shopping online for seeds. I did notice that a couple hybrids didn't grow well in our yard, though (i.e. Bush Goliath and Park's Whopper), and that our friend's Brandywine tomatoes didn't set fruit for a really long time, and she was getting concerned. She eventually got plenty of tomatoes, though.

[carolyn137]

I know you'd be disappointed if I didn't answer,at least I think you would re your various challenges to me here and at the other place where youpost so I'll just say the following.

I know Joseph quite well and have for well over a decade and he's trying to create landraces,not so much individual variety adaptations.

And adaptations are not all the same for everything living,as in I wouldn't compare watermelon with tomatoes,nor would I compare tomatoes with Ethiopian ancient wheat nor rice landraces.

So carry on for I've said all I wan to say or need to say about this issue.

Carolyn

@carolyn137

Yes. He's certainly doing landraces, which I think is awesome. More people should do that. I suppose it's possible that his rationale for refusing to fertilize has less to do with varietal adaptation and more to do with him just watching for the crosses that handle less fertilizer the best (or something to that effect). I could ask him and see what he has to say. I imagine he probably still uses natural fertilizer, though (like compost or such); so, maybe it's just a preference.

I know you're a tomato expert (and you probably have a plethora of knowledge outside the tomato realm, too). I'm not meaning to say my thoughts (and certainly not my knowledge) are superior to yours or anything, but they are my thoughts, nonetheless (however inexperienced they are). And, we were probably thinking of slightly different things initially, anyway. I like to challenge stuff because sometimes you learn things that aren't widely known, whether or not it's what you meant to learn.

For instance, people (even experts) often broadly believe that 6500k color temperature lights are the best kinds of fluorescent lights for indoor plants period. However, that may be true for a lot of situations, but I've found through experience by challenging that that there are reasons to use lower color temperatures, too. Like, they protect against damping off (while the higher color temperatures don't seem to so much), and theoretically the lower color temperatures should encourage flowering more than higher color temperatures, which should encourage leaf growth more (although my experience hasn't shown whether or not this latter bit of information is true, yet, but research is on its side, due to the differences in red and blue light). Plus, while plants will still grow reasonably well under lower color temperatures (a lot of people think they don't, but I challenged this; maybe my reasonably well is different than there's, though—which is another reason to challenge things), they don't lean toward the light as much (so, if you don't want them to lean and have to turn them a lot, that's an advantage of lower color temperatures, as they still grow). Does this make me an expert on lights? No. But, it is interesting and helpful information.

So, in other words, I'm mostly saying that I very often like to learn by doing things, rather than just by hearing information and repeating it. My challenging your words, as you put it, has more to do with what I don't know than what I do know. I like to challenge things I don't know, or haven't learned for myself, because it's an opportunity to learn, and to read between the lines (people may say stuff, but they may leave out important tidbits they know, because including it would be tedious or seem unnecessary to them, while it may be precisely what I want). Plus, it's an opportunity for others to elaborate on their positions if they want to. I'm not meaning to argue or anything.

The between the lines stuff seems to take the most effort to learn, because people just don't talk about it as much. So, I like to try bring a lot of that stuff out to make it easier for people like me who enjoy it.

I'm sorry if I came across wrong. I think you're awesome, by the way. I'm grateful for your knowledge, experience, work, thoroughness (you are quite thorough where a lot of people might say a few words, and I appreciate that quality of yours), and for how communicative/responsive you are—and your personality, of course. Sorry if I don't always respond how you might expect to something humorous you post, too. I don't mean anything ill by that. I just don't always know how to respond to it properly, but I do appreciate it still. I don't always laugh at stuff I find funny in person, either. And I do laugh at some stuff I don't think is particularly funny (like I tend to laugh while I write emails and forum posts for some unknown reason; I don't know why, I just do). People ask me what I'm laughing at, and I have no idea what to tell them sometimes. So, if you're thinking I'm laughing right now, you're probably right. Don't ask me why. This isn't really funny stuff, but it sure feels good.

I perhaps have working memory issues, too (that's like RAM in computers, if you're into computers; it's not the same thing as short-term memory, but it's like how much is in your head at a time). So, I may not always have understood what you said properly the first time I read it, due to all the information I read not being in my head at the same time. I like to be thorough and write long and many messages partially because it helps me to catch stuff like that, and correct it (and give me something to do while I analyze the situation). I edit a lot of my posts, too (so, the email versions are often different from what you'll see on the forum itself).