First Little Lucky

[a sunny day]

Hi Carolyn, thank you for your reply. Well it seems I would be crazy to discard the little pointy hearts after all. It's just lucky I haven't already done so!

I just checked Tatiana's two web pages and the larger Little Lucky is exactly like "Little Lucky" but the two plants with the pointy hearts are very different to "Little Lucky Heart"... much prettier actually. I just measured a couple and they are around an inch and a half long, about the size of a large cherry... and sweet and delicious!

I definitely bought the plain Little Lucky so it does now seem likely to have been a mutation in the parent plant of two of the seeds I grew out because if it was crossed seed then it would be more unlikely for the tomatoes of the two plants to be identical, wouldn't you think?

Postage is really quite expensive from Australia to US but I am already planning to send some tomato seed to Ginger, so Ginger would you like me to send some "Little Lucky Heart" seed to you in case anyone wants to try them?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by a sunny day

Hi Carolyn, thank you for your reply. Well it seems I would be crazy to discard the little pointy hearts after all. It's just lucky I haven't already done so!

I just checked Tatiana's two web pages and the larger Little Lucky is exactly like "Little Lucky" but the two plants with the pointy hearts are very different to "Little Lucky Heart"... much prettier actually. I just measured a couple and they are around an inch and a half long, about the size of a large cherry... and sweet and delicious!

I definitely bought the plain Little Lucky so it does now seem likely to have been a mutation in the parent plant of two of the seeds I grew out because if it was crossed seed then it would be more unlikely for the tomatoes of the two plants to be identical, wouldn't you think?

Postage is really quite expensive from Australia to US but I am already planning to send some tomato seed to Ginger, so Ginger would you like me to send some "Little Lucky Heart" seed to you in case anyone wants to try them?

But if you look at the link I put up for Little Lucky Heart you'll see that what Reinhard in Germany already had experienced was the same event that you describe, but Tania and Craig came up with some other explanations as well in the following link.

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Little_Lucky_Heart

It looks to me like there already is a Little Lucky Heart that is known and seeds available for it, so are we reinventing the wheel here, which is the best way I can put it.

Carolyn

[ddsack]

Postage is really quite expensive from Australia to US but I am already planning to send some tomato seed to Ginger, so Ginger would you like me to send some "Little Lucky Heart" seed to you in case anyone wants to try them?

Ginger -- say Yes! I for one, would love to try your version of baby Lucky Hearts, if you send enough to Ginger to share. I really like Lucky Cross, and Little Lucky has same great taste, but I was disappointed that it was not much earlier for me, despite the smaller size. Have not tried the heart version, but your little super pointed ones sound intriguing.

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by a sunny day

Hi Carolyn, thank you for your reply. Well it seems I would be crazy to discard the little pointy hearts after all. It's just lucky I haven't already done so!

I just checked Tatiana's two web pages and the larger Little Lucky is exactly like "Little Lucky" but the two plants with the pointy hearts are very different to "Little Lucky Heart"... much prettier actually. I just measured a couple and they are around an inch and a half long, about the size of a large cherry... and sweet and delicious!

I definitely bought the plain Little Lucky so it does now seem likely to have been a mutation in the parent plant of two of the seeds I grew out because if it was crossed seed then it would be more unlikely for the tomatoes of the two plants to be identical, wouldn't you think?

Postage is really quite expensive from Australia to US but I am already planning to send some tomato seed to Ginger, so Ginger would you like me to send some "Little Lucky Heart" seed to you in case anyone wants to try them?

Absolutely positively yes yes yes!

[a sunny day]

Awesome Ginger and ddsac!

I'll reply to Carolyn later because I just read about Little Lucky Heart properly. Before I was just looking at the pictures. And I'll have a look at the little hearts that J & L Gardens have as well... but I better get moving or I'll be late for work

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by ginger2778

Absolutely positively yes yes yes!

Marsha, where is your picture of these hearts that are different from Little Lucky Heart? If a picture is shown that's good, but if just an attachment I can't usually open them, probably a software problem with my browser . But I can see pictures. Just let me know which Forum, and which thread.

And here's what's been going through my mind as to why your hearts look different. When a particular season is very hot, I can't give you a temp, it's known that some varieties will form points at the blossom end when normally they would not and I've seen it myself as have others.

I tried Googling a bit but didn't come up with anything I thought was relevant although I didn't do a search here at Tville.

Just a thought to consider knowing how hot it can get where you live in FL.

Carolyn

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Marsha, where is your picture of these hearts that are different from Little Lucky Heart? If a picture is shown that's good, but if just an attachment I can't usually open them, probably a software problem with my browser . But I can see pictures. Just let me know which Forum, and which thread.

And here's what's been going through my mind as to why your hearts look different. When a particular season is very hot, I can't give you a temp, it's known that some varieties will form points at the blossom end when normally they would not and I've seen it myself as have others.

I tried Googling a bit but didn't come up with anything I thought was relevant although I didn't do a search here at Tville.

Just a thought to consider knowing how hot it can get where you live in FL.

Carolyn

Um, er, where please did I say I had a picture? Am I missing something?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by ginger2778

Um, er, where please did I say I had a picture? Am I missing something?

No, I don't think you are missing something at all, I think it was this comment that was made in a post above that I misinterpreted, primarily the beginning of the comment.

(Ginger -- say Yes! I for one, would love to try your version of baby Lucky Hearts, if you send enough to Ginger to share. I really like Lucky Cross, and Little Lucky has same great taste, but I was disappointed that it was not much earlier for me, despite the smaller size. Have not tried the heart version, but your little super pointed ones sound intriguing. )

Carolyn

[a sunny day]

Tatiana says the origin of the Heart shape was either from mutation (less likely in her opinion) or a rare three way cross, of which her explanation confused me!

In any case, the photos from Tatiana's web page and also J&L Gardens showed quite significantly more oblong shaped hearts, not nearly as pretty. But the colour of Tatiana's tomatoes look the same as mine. These two that I have photographed just now weighed a total of 50grams, that's 1.75 ounces. Tatiana says that Little Lucky Hearts weigh between 4 - 8 ounces, so mine are considerably smaller.

They are very sweet and at the same time really tangy. They kind of explode in your mouth!

They are potato leaf and late. And I visited my mum today who had some Little Lucky tomatoes from my sister, that I had grown for her and they were exactly the same, so that's three out of four plants with these little pointy hearts. The original seed was sold to me by a reputable seed seller and definitely as "Little Lucky".

Carolyn the pictures Marsha was commenting on were the ones I posted, so they were grown here in Australia, not Florida. But we also experience some hot days of 38 - 39C with one day of 40C (that's 104 fahrenheit). But mostly the season was quite mild, although very windy. Do you think the few very hot days would be a reason for the pointy hearts? Then there's also the size difference.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by a sunny day

Tatiana says the origin of the Heart shape was either from mutation (less likely in her opinion) or a rare three way cross, of which her explanation confused me!

In any case, the photos from Tatiana's web page and also J&L Gardens showed quite significantly more oblong shaped hearts, not nearly as pretty. But the colour of Tatiana's tomatoes look the same as mine. These two that I have photographed just now weighed a total of 50grams, that's 1.75 ounces. Tatiana says that Little Lucky Hearts weigh between 4 - 8 ounces, so mine are considerably smaller.

They are very sweet and at the same time really tangy. They kind of explode in your mouth!

They are potato leaf and late. And I visited my mum today who had some Little Lucky tomatoes from my sister, that I had grown for her and they were exactly the same, so that's three out of four plants with these little pointy hearts. The original seed was sold to me by a reputable seed seller and definitely as "Little Lucky".

Carolyn the pictures Marsha was commenting on were the ones I posted, so they were grown here in Australia, not Florida. But we also experience some hot days of 38 - 39C with one day of 40C (that's 104 fahrenheit). But mostly the season was quite mild, although very windy. Do you think the few very hot days would be a reason for the pointy hearts? Then there's also the size difference.

I do understand what Tania was referring to when she said a possible three way cross, but right now I don't think it is relevant right now.

What I think is important is that only 3/4 plants have the hearts which speaks to me of some cross pollinated seeds. Also, the huge size difference you got from what it's supposed to be if it were truly Little Lucky Heart.

I don't see that much difference in the points between what Tania shows and what you show, but I do see with Tania's pictures that it truly is a gold/red bicolor, meaning that a blush of reddish/pink moves upwards from the blossom end and that same exterior color is also found in the flesh itself, thus the word bicolor.

I didn't see any cross sections of your fruits to see if that secondary color was prominent.

You said you bought your Lucky Cross seeds from a reputable seed site, and that probalby means a site in Australia. THe only site I know pretty well is Diggers, but a quick glance didn't indicate that they were selling Little Lucky, but truly I was in a hurry when I was there this AM and the forward and backward buttons weren't working all that well.

Summary? I think you were sold seeds, some of which were already X pollinated since only 3/4 plants showed hearts. And that may also explain the difference in fruit size as well. I think the best thing to do is to save seeds from the fruits on the one non heart plant and label them so, and save seeds from several of the heart shapes from ONE plant. then grow out both kinds and see what you get next season. If you liked what you got for this season then F2 saved seeds from several hearts from ONE plant might well give you back what you liked so much/ And we can go from there.

Hope that helps,

Carolyn, who has distributed seeds for several varieties where she distributed over 1000 seeds before an offtype due to X pollination showed up/ All it takes is X pollination of one seed in the tomato ovary. The last time this happened was with the variety Pervaya Lyubov that she was listing in her seed offer here at Tville a few years ago. So percentages of X pollinated seeds in a commercial pack, or otherwise, can be quite variable.

[carolyn137]

I totally forgot to talk about the three way cross Tania spoke about and actually the information she gave was from Craig LeHoullier who had discovered Little Lucky and he had spoken to Reinhard Kraft in Germany about what Reinhard had found.

First, lets discuss normal pollination/ Each blossom has both male ( pollen) and ovules ( seeds to be), the females, in the tomato ovary present in the same blossom.

The pollen bearing anthers of the blossom are above what's called the stigma, which is the female receptive organ.

When pollen is normally shed to the stigma it goes down a tube to the tomato ovary where the ovules are and one pollen grain fertilizes one ovule. Most of the time all ovules are self pollinated from the pollen in the same blossom and in that case the seeds saved are true to the variety/

But there are times when self pollenization is not complete and then any ovules left unfertilized by self pollen can be fertilized by the pollen of another variety, thus leading to X pollination.

In Tania's link you saw three other varieties being mentioned as being possible pollen donors, Ukrainian Heart, Yellow OX heart and Bradywine X Tad.

It is known for saved seeds from a single fruit that up to FOUR other varieties have participated in X pollination.

It's also known that SMALL fruit size is genetically dominant to LARGE fruit size in a cross between the two.

Which is why I'm almost certain that the small size of your hearts as well as the shape as well as the different tips, those could have come from either of the two hearts mentioned, as well as the presumed lack of that seconday flesh color, all came from lack of complete self pollenization as I described above.

Which is why I think it would be interesting for you to save seeds as I suggeted above, sow the seeds and then plant out to see what you get;

I hope this helps,

Carolyn

[a sunny day]

Thanks Carolyn, you have helped a lot. Sorry I didn't reply to you sooner but yesterday was our wedding anniversary.

You made a comment, "What I think is important is that only 3/4 plants have the hearts which speaks to me of some cross pollinated seeds. Also, the huge size difference you got from what it's supposed to be if it were truly Little Lucky Heart."

Well, with these little hearts, I was actually thinking that 3/4 plants with identical fruit would suggest that the seed was quite stable or maybe they were the result of a natural mutation, rather than a cross because I imagined an F1 generation to produce all sorts mixed results. But what you are suggesting is that is not the case at all.

So yes, I will definitely take your advice and grow out some seed from the one true looking Little Lucky plant and one of the little heart ones. I have saved bagged seed from both! (And Ginger and ddsac might like some to grow out this season if I can send them asap?)

And thank you for your great explanation about a three or four way cross. That's amazing that the result of a four way cross could be a single fruit! I know that puppies in one litter can have more than one different father, but I wasn't aware that one single tomato could share up to four parents.

You also said, "It's also known that SMALL fruit size is genetically dominant to LARGE fruit size in a cross between the two."

Carolyn is this always the case with cross pollinated offspring, that small fruit size is dominant?

And I will msg you the seed source.

Thanks for your time. I've learnt heaps!

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by a sunny day

Thanks Carolyn, you have helped a lot. Sorry I didn't reply to you sooner but yesterday was our wedding anniversary.

You made a comment, "What I think is important is that only 3/4 plants have the hearts which speaks to me of some cross pollinated seeds. Also, the huge size difference you got from what it's supposed to be if it were truly Little Lucky Heart."

Well, with these little hearts, I was actually thinking that 3/4 plants with identical fruit would suggest that the seed was quite stable or maybe they were the result of a natural mutation, rather than a cross because I imagined an F1 generation to produce all sorts mixed results. But what you are suggesting is that is not the case at all.

So yes, I will definitely take your advice and grow out some seed from the one true looking Little Lucky plant and one of the little heart ones. I have saved bagged seed from both! (And Ginger and ddsac might like some to grow out this season if I can send them asap?)

And thank you for your great explanation about a three or four way cross. That's amazing that the result of a four way cross could be a single fruit! I know that puppies in one litter can have more than one different father, but I wasn't aware that one single tomato could share up to four parents.

You also said, "It's also known that SMALL fruit size is genetically dominant to LARGE fruit size in a cross between the two."

Carolyn is this always the case with cross pollinated offspring, that small fruit size is dominant?

And I will msg you the seed source.

Thanks for your time. I've learnt heaps!

Yes, small fruit size is dominant to large fruit size in a cross and that cross can be either an accidental X pollination OR with a directed one that someone is doing between two known parents to form an F1 and selections made from saving the F2 seeds and planting out will usually show that if enough plants are put out.

Carolyn

[a sunny day]

Ok so in that case the breeder, or me in the case of these Little Lucky hearts need to grow out quite a few plants if we are looking for larger sized fruit in the offspring?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by a sunny day

Ok so in that case the breeder, or me in the case of these Little Lucky hearts need to grow out quite a few plants if we are looking for larger sized fruit in the offspring?

I think it would be MUCH easier to get some stable Little Lucky Heart seeds than to try and upsize what you now have which is already confusing.

While Tania hasn't updated for 2015 yet she lists two sources for 2014 and I'd get the seeds from her or take a look at Lee's J and L seed site, in the Seed and Plant source Forum, and look at a picture and description/

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Little_Lucky_Heart

Carolyn